Some clarifications on calls OLD

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Hatsuo1980
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:27 pm

Luke wrote:TLDR: Tighter control on items, rehashing of certain effects may be required to make character options worthwhile. I remember when soul was scary, if you wanted to get around a warrior you got his soul. Same with a mage. Why do we need this pureshard/rift/divine/bane crap anyway?


At a guess, because it was felt it was the only way to challenge ultra high skill parties but, in reality, none of those calls remotely challenge super high skill characters anyway.

Agree about the Soul thing. One of the coolest fights was against the mouth, it was taxing, challenging and very, very rewarding. It felt hard, it felt like you were in real danger. Then Annihilation just felt a bit rubbish in comparison because it was all "you get hit you die" which isn't remotely challenging.

It's the same by bringing a neuronic mage as a player verses a boss. They use that Neuronic Crush, they can't move or cast etc, neither can the boss, the team beats a big NPC to death while he stands still. That's shit. So is the boss saying ''nah mate, no effect''. It's difficult, that absolute ''always works'' part reduces the options of the players and the referees.


I have a feeling that this should have been worded as "if either the caster or the target takes damage then the effect is broken" but this was missed :)

What a lot of these calls do is completely remove that reward. They create an absolute which you cannot really deal with. Okay for a mage maybe that's fine, but I can see the frustration in creating a very well built, well crafted intelligent character with options being fucked over entirely by some trumped up little tool because he got his hands on something dumb.


Can't all of the calls on the first page be negated by skills in the standard part of the system?

From a ref point of view I think these absolutes are fine, but in the hands of players it's crappy especially as Will says on transferable items.


Out of interest, why is it ok for refs to use them and players to not?

BTW: yes calls like "possession more soul than you have" are rubbish, I completely agree :)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Luke » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:10 pm

Yeah I feel like SSDodge basically avoids (get it) most of these issues. Which is fine, we have established a long time ago that it's probably the best thing you can have.

As for the ref thing, I stand by what I said because Refs get to choose when to apply said effect, whereas in general, players versions of said effects are constant. A player with pure shard sword is going to massacre a whole event if that event happens to involve a lot of magic. Whereas same said event is unlikely to have pureshard in more than one encounter.

Unfortunately I think this debate involves too many situations to make comparisons so Ima stop doing that.

As for neuronic crush I didn't know that. Totally okay with it now.

I think my personal issue is with finality. A weapon that specifically nullifies pretty much half of the spells/effects in the game is pretty amazing.

Honestly for 'balance' I would just give a pure shard weapon innates.

X weapon blows a day does pureshard. When activated user cannot use magic for 5 mins.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:13 pm

Luke wrote:Yeah I feel like SSDodge basically avoids (get it) most of these issues. Which is fine, we have established a long time ago that it's probably the best thing you can have.


There are plenty of other's as well, it's not limited to SS dodge, which (I don't think) isn't purchasable by everyone

I don't like innates of X, it seems a little hard to justify. The essence per damage grade thing seems fine or maybe just dispels the lowest rank ongoing spell or similar
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:14 pm

Actually, i'm lying, I think it's fine the way it is but meh
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:42 pm

The refs vs players thing is about creating a game/experience and achieving a desired effect with the system as one of your tools for doing so.

Not, refs who are playing get to have cool things.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:54 pm

I think it comes down to (and people would of come across these terms beforehand because I know you guys play TCG's/LoL/Etc) HARD and SOFT COUNTERS!! Yay!!

I don't think these special weapons should ever be in a position where they can be considered "Hard-Counters" to average player archetypes. By that I mean when we consider them in relation to the 3 Main Classes - Strength Warrior, Dex Scout, Academic Mage - and their traditional builds. (If you happen to build a Warrior who has bought DNW/Read+Write/Tracking and goes around in a cloth robe without weapons, you are basically signing your own death warrant).

So, what are Soft/Hard Counters you ask? Well thank you Starcraft Wiki for the definition


A hard counter is something that beats its counterpart even with inferior investment.
A soft counter usually beats its counterpart, but may lose with inferior investment.


The way I see it, blows from special weapons are freely available, they don't have a essence cost and the only attrition is whether your arm hurts after swinging a whole bunch. This is why they need to be vetted with caution. I'm ok with Spells/Abilities being considered Hard Counters because they have an investment to them. I.E - Mana Drain, shuts down a mages casting ability, but it costs you 15 Essence and 30 Seconds of casting time (You've also invested [wasted] skill in buying up the Meta tree). Yes weapons usually have some form of Money/Quest investment, but I don't feel that's the same kind of investment.


If we look at the other special weapon of note and analyse its balance

"Rift" as a call means that the spell/blow/effect ignores Immunities and Resistances.


I think we can all agree, of the 3 archetypes that Warriors are most susceptible to a blow from a rift weapon, as they are likely to have DR's. They therefore have the most to lose from a Rift weapon blow. Buuuut, the important distinction, is that the Warrior Archetype will usually be in armour of some sort, and encouraged to take extra hits. So whilst in this particular case the Warrior has lost his DR's and is probably feeling shitty about it, he has only been soft countered as he still retains some manner of defense/offense/usefulness.

If you are struck by Pure Shard then all active spells are dispelled. If you take damage (after armour/dex is taken into account) then you cannot use essence for 30 seconds


Now, no surprise, but the mage archetype is the most susceptible to a blow from a pure shard weapon. The mage will likely have shielding spells up, and possibly contingencies, but they will all be gone instantly and their ability to recast temporarily disabled. Coupled with the fact that a mage will not usually purchase extra hits or wear masses of armour I would consider the mage to have been hard-countered. He has no defense/offense and is useless.


Anyway, I think I'm mostly repeating old points, but just in a better way because I'm not at work. With that, I think we should leave the balancing now to Ben, who is probably wishing we'd all just stfu.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Ben » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:26 pm

Why do we need this pureshard/rift/divine/bane crap anyway?


Pureshard/rift have existed since the beginning: I just tried to make them simpler and get rid of Null/Magic as calls by combining them (and make rift still cool with Glooms gone).

Divine/Bane exist so that on an event with players who are 10 skill and those at 300 the low level guy and high level guy can be hit with the same monster and both be affected without being killed. Situationally they're cool though I dislike the idea that the more powerful you are the MORE you are hurt by something. It feels wrong.

Anyway...Pure Shard damages essence seems a good compromise. Although why a really strong person hitting you damages your essence more is a bit weird. Perhaps when Pure Shard is forged it's like a Soul Weapon and has a set amount of damage it does? Or a blow of Pure Shard takes away 1 essence per threshold of the victim (0-29 1 essence, 30-59 2 essence, 60-119 3 essence etc).

Play a character who relies on DRs (for example), having something just ignore DRs basically just seems boring, and unintelligent.


Back before the changes to magic and calls, if you were hit by a basically enchanted weapon for "Magic Quad" (or "Fire Quad"), should physical DRs have worked? I can't remember but looking back on it now it feels as if they shouldn't. "Magic Bolt" had no counter through DRs to absolute or elemental. So I thought that combining them with rift and making it that rift gets through immunities and resistances was cool.

As for boring/unintelligent. I would suggest that having a skill/ability that always works is 'boring': no skill should be foolproof with no way round it. As for 'unintelligent', I suggest an intelligent thing to do is not to put all your eggs in one basket and spend some skill on skills that will help if something negates your primary form of defence.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Peter Levy » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:10 am

Ben wrote:I suggest an intelligent thing to do is not to put all your eggs in one basket and spend some skill on skills that will help if something negates your primary form of defence.


This.

I'd rather not change it. Let Pure Shard dispel everything it strikes. I don't want balance, I don't want maths. The thing that's sole purpose is to stop magic from working absolutely should be super powerful against magical things. Mages should buy hits.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Dom » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:39 am



I'd rather not change it. Let Pure Shard dispel everything it strikes. I don't want balance, I don't want maths. The thing that's sole purpose is to stop magic from working absolutely should be super powerful against magical things. Mages should buy hits.


Ok then i want it to work the same way 100% of the time on npcs. If they are sensible they can buy hits too.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:12 am

If you stick with it I'd let casting stamina let you carry on casting...
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:53 pm

Dom wrote:


I'd rather not change it. Let Pure Shard dispel everything it strikes. I don't want balance, I don't want maths. The thing that's sole purpose is to stop magic from working absolutely should be super powerful against magical things. Mages should buy hits.


Ok then i want it to work the same way 100% of the time on npcs. If they are sensible they can buy hits too.


+1

its powerful but its powerful both for and against
players. That feels right to me :)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:41 pm

Hmm.. Still not in agreement here.

Yes, of course to counter PS it is sensible to buy Extra Hits as a mage, but regardless of that fact is still outscales other system mechanics in terms of raw power. It's still a targeted dispel everything you have on you + no essence use for 30 seconds. It's way out of line with the power curve for the rest of the system.

It working the same for monsters and PC's isn't really a solution. I'm talking Nuclear disarmament whilst you guys think that its ok for us to have them because the Ruskies do too.

So what it boils down to, is basically you guys are all horrible people who want to nuke babies. FU all.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Rebecca » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:48 pm

Nopenopenopenopenope. High mages for instance have NA martial. There is no way they can buy extra hits, and the spell casters who can still need to expend a large amount of skill that they're certainly not going to have to spare until the higher end of the system: in best case scenario is, they end up unconscious at 0 hits without any possible defence. Dispel all you've got and deal direct damage is silly, and at worse a death warrant You can't even try to do anything about. It's cheap. Even "Divine"can be reflected or deflected through cheat death, and even neuronics can be countered through a combination of immunities and/or resistances to domination, stopping effects or cheat death.

Draining essence, even in larger quantities than suggested above (say, at -10 essence per threshold o the attacker) is still cooler. It's strong, but if a player reacts quickly enough they can actually survive.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Ben » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:03 pm

Pure Shard does sort of scale. Sort of. Lower level characters have less/less powerful spells on them (usually) so it dispels less.

Pure Shard discourages people from putting every spell in the book up at the beginning of the day and starting to meditate. This is a sensible tactic and I have nothing against it, but knowing that "Dispel All Blow" exists means you have to weigh up whether it's wise or not.

I can be swayed either way on this really. I don't want to knee-jerk change unless it's needed but happy to change things if required.

As for NPCs playing by the same rules, I agree with this generally although it requires some extra thought in writing. Pure Shard is horrible, it almost killed the Emperor in the early days (someone put Pure Shard next to him, it knocked out everything he had and he had to back off for long enough so that he could do anything).
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Rebecca » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:20 pm

To be fair, even if someone at epic tier puts out a shield 20 at the beginning of the day, it's still going to take them almost an hour to get the essence back, and that's assuming they're not interrupted by anything and refrain from casting anything else.
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