Some clarifications on calls OLD

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:54 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:Divine - this was horrific when it first came out and still feels horrific if you get hit by it. Then again it's only from a God. I think there are more Gods than Pure Shard weapons in the system.


Used extremely rarely and completely in plot hands.

Bane - as above but worse.


Used for plot specific killing usually obtained after in game questing and work.

Sever/Loc to zero - cutting a limb off or incapacitating someone in a single blow


Also exceptionally rare and only plot related uses.

Rift -no resistances or immunites to a spell or weapon blow seems powerful, especially in combination with the above or, say, touch of death, conflagration, etc.


I think of only two people can cast rift spells? Going through resistances with a weapon blow isn't a huge deal.

I think how Pure Shard works is actually fine. It fits what Pure Shard is. The problem is if Pure Shard becomes to common.


Hmm, well, if it exists at all for player access (which most of the above are not with occasional massive exceptions) then it's open for abuse. It's complete mage killing material. As it stands the downside is pretty strong, in that you can't wield it and have spells active, and magical creatures are likely to not have a fun time. Not sure how it could be sensibly changed.

Easy fix. Don't allow PC crafters to craft Pure Shard, thus the only way of having Pure Shard weapons in the system is by methods employed by the reffing team.


Well, it is governed by how much of the material is put into the game, and then the initiative is put on the players, which I feel is a really cool system for doing it. I think there may have been some chinese whispers in relation to the initial "ZOMG" for this discussion. There was maybe enough ores for 7 or so different weapons for all the types that were gathered together (so rift, true steel, grave-nail, pure shard) and even that's a little generous...

So, yeah, I don't feel it's an imminent disaster about to hit. As I said, as far as the system says no one has any Pure Shard Weapons (and therefore anyone using Pure Shard weapons at the moment would be cheating).

N.B. Don't forget to get in touch to make sure your characters are up to date! That includes transferring items off of the notes section and into the items section!
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:58 pm

I think my point could have been more easily summed up as:

The problem lies in things the players access without monitoring. A pure shard sword can be passed from person to person and suddenly appear. Pretty much everything else is controlled as to who has it and who can use it.

So, Marcus has a Divine Hammer. That hammer is only ever going to be used in Marcus' hands. Ashout isn't suddenly going to jump on someone with the hammer and call divine, for example.

Shifty can cast rift spells (I think?). He can't pass that ability onto Aquilla.

Dusk (allegedly) has a Pure Shard sword. She can pass this to a 10 skill character for using in the buried campaign. Problems ensue.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:01 pm

Further!

I like things being in player control and not ours. That's quite a key principal of the system. But some things need to be controlled.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:27 pm

Sever/Loc to zero - cutting a limb off or incapacitating someone in a single blow


Also exceptionally rare and only plot related uses.


Unless i'm wrong, there are 3 different circle 6 spells which do this so I wouldn't say it's that rare.

Rift -no resistances or immunites to a spell or weapon blow seems powerful, especially in combination with the above or, say, touch of death, conflagration, etc.



I think of only two people can cast rift spells? Going through resistances with a weapon blow isn't a huge deal.


Isn't bypassing resistances (like damage resistances), combined with thru damage, as lethal to a Warrior as Pure Shard is to a Mage?

I agree that HoP's player driven nature is one of it's biggest qualities and you don't want to take away from that but I don't really see an issue with Pure Shard personally. There doesn't seem to be enough PvP in the system that it's really an issue.

P.S. in the Dusk scenario, let's be honest she's never giving that to some rando :P and that, I would imagine, would generally be the case much like it was with the Rift weapons
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:15 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:Unless i'm wrong, there are 3 different circle 6 spells which do this so I wouldn't say it's that rare.


Well, not sure which they are, but still, that's when you're in the Epic end of the system, whereas Pure Shard is potentially available in the starting tier.

Really really sure there aren't things which do sever?

Isn't bypassing resistances (like damage resistances), combined with thru damage, as lethal to a Warrior as Pure Shard is to a Mage?


I wouldn't say so. A strike from Pure Shard could effectively do 20+ damage in one blow (shields/rockskin/invigorate etc) that would probably be the only survival available to that character, and then stop them using the spells they need to go on and survive that particular conflict. Maybe casting stamina could be applied to Pure Shard stopping them casting? Hmm....

I agree that HoP's player driven nature is one of it's biggest qualities and you don't want to take away from that but I don't really see an issue with Pure Shard personally. There doesn't seem to be enough PvP in the system that it's really an issue.


Ah but... when it does happen, and it does, you need to be ready... plus if you define that something does something, they use that something on your big bad NPC and because that big bad NPC dying would screw up the event you're forced to say "Err that didn't work" then you encounter disgruntlement.

P.S. in the Dusk scenario, let's be honest she's never giving that to some rando :P and that, I would imagine, would generally be the case much like it was with the Rift weapons


Lol, not a great example. The Rift weapons got handed out left right and centre!
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:20 pm

Really really sure there aren't things which do sever?


Wither and Disintegrate Limb with Heart of Ice for Loc to 0 chest.

I wouldn't say so. A strike from Pure Shard could effectively do 20+ damage in one blow (shields/rockskin/invigorate etc) that would probably be the only survival available to that character, and then stop them using the spells they need to go on and survive that particular conflict.


To play devil's advocate, you state re: server "that's when you're in the Epic end of the system" but for someone to do 20+ points of damage with a Pure Shard weapon they'd be hitting a relatively high level caster to have the disposable essence to cast all those buffs, at least in the 60 skill + range.

Ah but... when it does happen, and it does, you need to be ready... plus if you define that something does something, they use that something on your big bad NPC and because that big bad NPC dying would screw up the event you're forced to say "Err that didn't work" then you encounter disgruntlement.


This happens anyway, regardless of whether Pure Shard get's changed.

Lol, not a great example. The Rift weapons got handed out left right and centre!


Neither was Dusk giving a Pure Shard weapon to a 10 skill rando ;) Also, the rift weapons didn't really get handed out left, right and centre for a long time, not up until around 3-4 years ago (Ben's time saga)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:27 pm

To play devil's advocate, you state re: server "that's when you're in the Epic end of the system" but for someone to do 20+ points of damage with a Pure Shard weapon they'd be hitting a relatively high level caster to have the disposable essence to cast all those buffs, at least in the 60 skill + range.


The thing with Pure Shard and its dispel mechanic (which I feel is the lynch pin which makes it strong) is that it will usually be proportionate. If a mage has up a Shield of Elements (4), it's probably because he's at the low end of the system and that's his means of survival, he's effectively invested the maximum he can to be able to survive. A Pure-Shard blow and he's completely gone. Even if we scale it up to the top end where a mage has Shield (20) contingency Shield (20) it's usually because that's his means of survival, which is why he's invested so much of his power into it. So regardless of whether they are hitting a low level or a high level caster, they are still making proportional considerable impact to that character. Impact that I personally feel is fucking insane. Because in addition, the caster now cannot really react or do anything (In all likelihood, he may have gone down at the same time to the damage portion of the PS blow) because he doesn't have access to his Essence, which is his main game mechanic.

The Rift/Through Damage combo you mention is similar in a way, when considering a Warrior, except they have favourable mods to Hits per, and are usually encouraged to take them. Also, the Warrior isn't disarmed at the same time, which is effectively what PS does to a caster. Plus it requires both the said weapon, and another further skill (which has it's own essence cost) rather than just whacking someone.


I like the suggestion of Casting Stamina being used to counteract the essence block following a PS Strike (in the same vein as Mind Freeze, so there's precedent for it).

It might be worth having a defense for the dispel portion of it (whether it's a specific new armor mages can wear, or a Self-Buff spell to specifically counter dispels) as there are armours that protect against through, as well as an ability or two I think.

Something like

Drake Scale Robes - This highly resistant material blah blah blah lore rp blah prevents active spells being dispelled via Pure Shard. A normal targetted dispel however, will still work


Resistance to Pure Shard - When casting a spell if you add [Your threshold 1/2/3/4/5 essence] to the cast you may make the spell "Resolute". A "Resolute" spell is immune to the dispelling effects of Pure Shard.
Last edited by Stevie on Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:32 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:Neither was Dusk giving a Pure Shard weapon to a 10 skill rando ;) Also, the rift weapons didn't really get handed out left, right and centre for a long time, not up until around 3-4 years ago (Ben's time saga)


I can very much see a situation of someone starting an apprentice like character and getting given shiny items.

And they did... they really really did, all over the place. You couldn't go on an adventure without rift being around, and there were only 3 or 4 weapons in the system.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:53 am

To be honest Rift didn't used to do anything special except hurt glooms, this thread was initially about cutting down and simplifying calls. In doing so I may not have considered implications of certain calls, will have a look through everything
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:20 pm

what about Pure Shard only removing spells from a circle = the threshold of the user?

This way now 29 skill character goes and kills some 300 skill mage with loads of shielding and buffs up (unless they are all circle 1)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:24 pm

Here's the thing: magic user realises someone has Pure Shard. They can't hurt him and know he'll just blow all their shields so they back off and let the non-casters handle it. They shouldn't be trying to go toe-to-toe with him. Agreed, there's an issue when monster-with-pure-shard destroys 50 essence worth of spells with a single hit. An old idea was that a Pure Shard blow puts all your active spells on hiatus for 5 minutes at which point they kick back in with any remaining time. I guess that's a possibility, I just never really liked it.

I guess people's worries are PvP related?

I don't really want to get too complicated. Was thinking that it could Dispel one active spell, caster then puts up some unnecessary spells so that he can lose them to blows? Caster chooses which spell to go down or we set it that the newest one goes down?

Or...a very simple solution...Pure Shard no longer affects active spells, instead it drains essence from whoever is hit by it.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Dom » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:33 am

I think my issue isnt 100% with pvp (because we all know i love killing people), its with the potential disparity between hitting a player (say 150+ skill of mage/clebrant/paladin) and hitting a big NPC whos a caster. The NPC could, not saying would, but could choose that the encounter is better if they dont take the effect.
Id rather have an effect that doesnt force refs/monsters to make that decision, and the disgruntlement that could follow.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:52 am

have an effect that doesnt force refs/monsters to make that decision, and the disgruntlement that could follow.


This

I think there's some cool ideas of how Pure Shard could be adjusted. Draining essence seems really cool.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:14 am

Drain an amount equivalent to the damage?

PS Single = 1 Essence
PS Quad = 4 Essence

Etc.

I actually really like this solution.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Luke » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:45 pm

Coming to the party late, so apologies if this is ground covered.

I really agree with Dom. I think the damage calls in question are difficult because we often think of the game as one of skill. Building a character is in a way, a talent, it takes time and dedication and when it works, especially with combos you can become very strong. It's rewarding.

What a lot of these calls do is completely remove that reward. They create an absolute which you cannot really deal with. Okay for a mage maybe that's fine, but I can see the frustration in creating a very well built, well crafted intelligent character with options being fucked over entirely by some trumped up little tool because he got his hands on something dumb.

It also feels stupid. Play a character who relies on DRs (for example), having something just ignore DRs basically just seems boring, and unintelligent. It's the same feeling when someone says ''possession more soul than you have''.

From a ref point of view I think these absolutes are fine, but in the hands of players it's crappy especially as Will says on transferable items.

It's the same by bringing a neuronic mage as a player verses a boss. They use that Neuronic Crush, they can't move or cast etc, neither can the boss, the team beats a big NPC to death while he stands still. That's shit. So is the boss saying ''nah mate, no effect''. It's difficult, that absolute ''always works'' part reduces the options of the players and the referees.

With regards to items specifically I'm an advocate for tighter control. (I love you buddy, please don't hate me) but taking a certain friend of mine, he rolls up a 20 skill character, emails someone who barely is part of the system to join a certain guild, knowing they have a bunch of items which I think most of the ref team has forgotten about. Goes to Buried where there seems to have been a magic item explosion and then takes those items to a weekend event. Result: 20 skill character with about 100 skill of stats.

It seems petty to be all ''I don't want them to be stronger than me'', and that isn't the issue, it's just that why should I, as a player, bother to create a character. Why bother with rules and stats?

This is very badly structured so apologies.

TLDR: Tighter control on items, rehashing of certain effects may be required to make character options worthwhile. I remember when soul was scary, if you wanted to get around a warrior you got his soul. Same with a mage. Why do we need this pureshard/rift/divine/bane crap anyway?

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