Some clarifications on calls OLD

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Hatsuo1980
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:54 pm

Why not leave Pure Shard as is and it if actually proves to be a problem (which I doubt it will, feels like an overreaction) then change it.

I'm sure the counter argument is "but someone will be dead by then" but we went back on shit deaths in the past when things needed nerfing, so I don't see why it would be different here...
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:57 pm

BTW can I just say I love and hate the "lose essence per damage grade when hit by Pure Shard" thing as a potential nerf. Sure, this is fatal or anything but it makes for some real dick head moments...
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:20 pm

See, we've only been looking at a PS weapon in terms of its potential when striking, but there's the whole other side, which are the defenses it confers. I asked whether just wielding a weapon, would constitute having "PS about oneself" and then make the wielder immune to magic. You seem to think it should.

If so, this thing is even more batshit crazy OP then I postured before. If we can solve an issue before it becomes one in play, why not? Even if a PS weapon goes down to "Remove X Essence" or "Dispel Active Spells on hit, if so, confers no physical damage as part of the same blow" rather than what it is now (without the imm. magic part) I don't think people will still be going around saying "This is underpowered". Even in those forms it is an extremely effective weapon against magic users, as intended, but without being broken.

If you're immune to magic whilst wielding it, you might as well point at a mage and say "You're dead." Beside bonking you on the head with their staff (which does one point of damage - unless we're now expecting them to buy str and staff prof as well as extra hits) they can't affect you.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:49 pm

Stevie wrote:See, we've only been looking at a PS weapon in terms of its potential when striking, but there's the whole other side, which are the defenses it confers. I asked whether just wielding a weapon, would constitute having "PS about oneself" and then make the wielder immune to magic. You seem to think it should.

If so, this thing is even more batshit crazy OP then I postured before. If we can solve an issue before it becomes one in play, why not? Even if a PS weapon goes down to "Remove X Essence" or "Dispel Active Spells on hit, if so, confers no physical damage as part of the same blow" rather than what it is now (without the imm. magic part) I don't think people will still be going around saying "This is underpowered". Even in those forms it is an extremely effective weapon against magic users, as intended, but without being broken.

If you're immune to magic whilst wielding it, you might as well point at a mage and say "You're dead." Beside bonking you on the head with their staff (which does one point of damage - unless we're now expecting them to buy str and staff prof as well as extra hits) they can't affect you.


Don't forget holding Pure Shard means you can't use essence either so it has an adverse effect, unless you are a peasant and can't really be used/held by any of the magical races.

So mages can only interact if the cast spells that do damage or buff themselves? Why can't the mage cast enchant 5 and hit the person with no essence for 6? Not like the person can use Supreme Dodge to no effect the blow :P

It's a double-edged sword, unless you're a peasant

How is "Dispels Active Spells but does no damage" any better than it is now? Your argument is the mage has no defences and gets knocked out in 1 blow to PS quad. You make that changed and they get knocked out in 2. That is no different in reality. Well, I guess the mage gets to stand up for 2 seconds instead of 1 :)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:54 pm

I feel like you're asking a lot of situational things from the mage. Either a 20 Essence, 40 second cast time enchant (Ok, 19 essence, 38 second) or a snapcast at 40 Essence and 1 point of soul.

Like I've said before PS in this form is unforgivable, to counter it you need to be able to foresee everything and then react to it perfectly. We don't demand that of any other class and no other effect is so OP that it needs it.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:56 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:How is "Dispels Active Spells but does no damage" any better than it is now? Your argument is the mage has no defences and gets knocked out in 1 blow to PS quad. You make that changed and they get knocked out in 2. That is no different in reality. Well, I guess the mage gets to stand up for 2 seconds instead of 1 :)


They can still cast.

If you take damage (after armour/dex is taken into account) then you cannot use essence for 30 seconds (this is not cumulative, it's 30 seconds after the last time you were hit).

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:00 am

Stevie wrote:I feel like you're asking a lot of situational things from the mage. Either a 20 Essence, 40 second cast time enchant (Ok, 19 essence, 38 second) or a snapcast at 40 Essence and 1 point of soul.

Like I've said before PS in this form is unforgivable, to counter it you need to be able to foresee everything and then react to it perfectly. We don't demand that of any other class and no other effect is so OP that it needs it.


And you're talking like Pure Shard is gonna be on every adventure in every monster and they will all charge the mage, instead of the person standing 30 ft closer to them. Of course it's situational, everything in LARP is.

There are soooooooooooo many things that just knock people out and there is little they can do, this isn't massively different but people are reacting like it's the end of the world. Mages can even use essence to get around Pure Shard.....hell they can even get around it with spells!!!

Monsters are unlikely to be set with it, at least not commonly.

Players don't have access to it (outside of maybe 1-3, as far as I know)

PvP isn't even a big thing in HoP and, if we say 3 people have it, 2 of them "might" PvP, neither of which need Pure Shard to kill a Mage anyway.

I just don't foresee any issues with it. It's powerful, it's rare, it's far less powerful than Divine and every time that turned up we pretty much laughed anyway.
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:02 am

Stevie wrote:
Hatsuo1980 wrote:How is "Dispels Active Spells but does no damage" any better than it is now? Your argument is the mage has no defences and gets knocked out in 1 blow to PS quad. You make that changed and they get knocked out in 2. That is no different in reality. Well, I guess the mage gets to stand up for 2 seconds instead of 1 :)


They can still cast.


They can snap cast, only and then they have to react inside 1 second.

Good luck :)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:11 am

Once is enough. In my opinion it's broken, we have the ability to discuss and alter it now, before it becomes something somebody gets butt-hurt about and leaves the system over.

It's powerful, it performs above and beyond all the other special materials. It's in the hands of 1-3 players, it potentially can be in the hands of more. It will be set by refs.

It's not far less powerful than divine, divine only really had effect on Elves/things which take double damage, in the same vein that a Fire Bolt does double damage to a Water Elf.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:12 am

Stevie wrote:It's not far less powerful than divine, divine only really had effect on Elves/things which take double damage, in the same vein that a Fire Bolt does double damage to a Water Elf.


Someone doesn't remember how divine originally worked
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:12 am

Hatsuo1980 wrote:
Stevie wrote:
Hatsuo1980 wrote:How is "Dispels Active Spells but does no damage" any better than it is now? Your argument is the mage has no defences and gets knocked out in 1 blow to PS quad. You make that changed and they get knocked out in 2. That is no different in reality. Well, I guess the mage gets to stand up for 2 seconds instead of 1 :)


They can still cast.


They can snap cast, only and then they have to react inside 1 second.

Good luck :)


See, pretty fucking powerful right?


((I imagine people could probably go down the old route of Shield (1), get hit, Shield (1), get hit once they know they're being attacked by PS))

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:13 am

Hatsuo1980 wrote:
Stevie wrote:It's not far less powerful than divine, divine only really had effect on Elves/things which take double damage, in the same vein that a Fire Bolt does double damage to a Water Elf.


Someone doesn't remember how divine originally worked


Fair enough, what was it then, just so I know? Why was it changed anyway... was it too OP?

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Will » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:01 am

This remains very irrelevant as there are no pure shard weapons in the system.

I'll keep saying this till someone owns up, makes me look at their character sheet and transfer their notes into actual items. Just had a flick through the obvious culprits. Nada.

Then I guess we shall watch as someone turns themselves into an incredibly hated person and swiftly gets party killed/monster bundled :)
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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Thom » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:17 am

I still think it's not a big deal. If someone has a pure shard weapon and you're a mage, don't fight them. Or shift away from them. Or use a published retro. Or go invisible. Or just run. I don't really get why we're so scared of this.

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Re: Some clarifications on calls

Postby Stevie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:25 am

How do you know they have a pure-shard weapon, what if they sneak up on you?

No other system effect/powerbase has one call that so completely destroys a character (and mages are like 1/3 of the classes we have), nothing else is such a one-hit wonder. That's why.

Stuff being hard is fine, provided there's counterplay to it. Being hit by something that just kills you, isn't cool. It's why a dagger which does "Laby Mantic T.O.D with no resistances applying" wouldn't ever see the light of day, it's just not fun to be hit by something that does you in one. Even annihilation had to get through your armour first and you kinda knew about it too.

I want Pure-Shard in the system, I want there to be a weapon specifically designed with mages in mind, I just don't want it to be so out of balance with the rest of the system.


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