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Hatsuo1980
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:29 pm

From a "reality" point of view, of course wielding a heavy object in your hands is going to affect how well you move your arms more than some leather armour. I'm not even sure how anyone could think otherwise?


You don't think this was mocking, Will? That was certainly how it was received
Last edited by Hatsuo1980 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:30 pm

Will wrote:
Hatsuo1980 wrote:BTW

From a "reality" point of view, of course wielding a heavy object in your hands is going to affect how well you move your arms more than some leather armour. I'm not even sure how anyone could think otherwise?


How does the weapon in your hands effect you moving your legs?


It doesn't but then you move into system balance and simplicity.


So we, as a system, think that FAP and FLP are honestly more unbalance than using a shield or using 2 shields?
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:34 pm

Ok so here's the crux of it. My suggestion is actually an improvement based on what Forearm parry used to be when it was set in stone, which was no weapons, no armour. That's where I'm coming from. Over the years that kind of got lost, hence we're talking about defining it now.

I would equally argue that ring mail is not nearly as restrictive to the balance of your arms as wielding a weapon, and yes, of course there are weapons that are lighter but do we really want a system where we have to start classifying weapons by weight? The majority are heavy.

But anyway, coming from a point where weapon wielding is accepted then yes, absolutely, keep it at that. Maybe make the cost different for weapon wielding classes (so cheaper for Absent Blades).


Currently, Absent Blades are a weapon using class. There are no restrictions placed upon them (see other threads re: this)

I disagree that the majority of weapons used by Serkanians would be deemed heavy. Then again, one persons definition of heavy would differ from anothers.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Will » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:05 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:
From a "reality" point of view, of course wielding a heavy object in your hands is going to affect how well you move your arms more than some leather armour. I'm not even sure how anyone could think otherwise?


You don't think this was mocking, Will?


No, I genuinely don't understand it. As in, my brain cannot see it, I don't get the argument. Like, the vast majority of the time I can see what the other person is trying to say, but this is a rare situation where I just can't see how it can be that way. If anything it could be seen as mocking myself for not being able to see it, but that's pretty tenuous. It's certainly not a directed jibe. My apologies either way. That was not my intention.

Hatsuo1980 wrote:So we, as a system, think that FAP and FLP are honestly more unbalance than using a shield or using 2 shields?


I think FAP + FLP challenges shield when the person using them has an appropriate level of skill. Shields are easy, FAP/FLP is not so easy. But that's a different debate. Simplicity is a bigger deal here, keeping rules down. System balance I would argue that making it apply to one and not the other makes the different parries unbalanced. But again, I've already said I've conceded that weapons should be allowed.

Hatsuo1980 wrote:Currently, Absent Blades are a weapon using class. There are no restrictions placed upon them (see other threads re: this)

I disagree that the majority of weapons used by Serkanians would be deemed heavy. Then again, one persons definition of heavy would differ from anothers.


I'm pretty sure that that is an omission rather than the reality. Letter vs spirit.

Katanas and variants thereof are heavy, though I accept I have not wielded a wide range of them. Surely to the point where they restrict movement. A chunk of wood can be pretty heavy as well.

Again, I've already conceded my opinion to allowing weapon use.

And again, it's Ben's decision.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Stevie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:16 pm

Weighing in on this a bit.

To most effectively FAP/FLP you need to be able to turn the blow, which requires a lot of free movement in the arms/legs respectively.

In regards to the legs, it's not much of an issue. Greaves typically mimic the shin bone and the only hindering factor would be the weight of the armor, from which I think Leather/Studded would be fine.

In regards to the arms, I would say..

2H = No. (I don't really see a situation where you can keep both hands on your weapon and still actively "turn" a weapon. I concede that you'll certainly be able to raise your forearm to intercept the weapon, but I feel any turning motion either wouldn't exist, or would look crappy enough for me to resent it)

1H = Yes in the other hand, not in the weapon wielding hand.

1H Small (Daggers, Etc) = Daggers are just small extensions of the arms, so don't see why this should be an issue.

This would be the route I would take on it. FAP/FLP is strong and has a tendency to look wanky if done incorrectly. I have no issue with being harsh, but fair with it.

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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Peter Levy » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:22 pm

Sizel wrote:How about making FA & FL Parries a Damage Reduction equal to the character's DAC, and only useable in situations when they can use said DAC?


It scales in effectiveness as characters gain XP
Deal with the problem of wearing armour + using it at the same time
_
Pete


i love this idea. lots.

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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Will » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:25 pm

A bit of old debate from the ref forums, when Ash tried to remove the parries altogether:

It is actually quite a challenge to parry properly with your arms and legs and has taken me a while and a fair bit of practice to get the hang of. It helps that I practiced in a system where the typical rate of blows is about 4 times greater than in Pargon. It is a very defensive combat style and when fully defending, if you're good enough, you might be lucky to block as many blows as someone with a staff, but you wont get near the defense of a shield and sword. If you're trying to attack at the same time, you have about the same defensive capacity of a single sword, maybe two if you're good and the effectiveness of your attacks and reach is massively less.

Taken out of context the ability is stupid. Someone in chain and plate with sword and shield and this ability would be stupid. But that's not the case. We're talking about the only real form of defense these characters have. What has been done now is that the characters are practically unplayable.

A shaded blade, who can wield one sword from time to time and wear very limited armour, and so very little capacity will now get completely wiped out by characters 30 skill lower with a sword a shield. Absent blades will just get wiped out by everything. Compare typical spends:

60 Skill absent blade:
Dex x 3 = 15
Hits x 3 = 18
Parry leg x 2 = 9
Parry arm x 2 = 9
Lesser Healer = 3
Lesser Reflection = 6

So, he would have a base of 4 and 7 global hits and the ability to do some very limited healing

29 Skill Larkant Warrior:
Plate, Chain, studded = 0
Extra location hits x 3 = 9
Strength x 2 = 5
Weapon Proficiency x 2 = 5
Meditation = 4
Stand = 3
Steady = 2
Shield Prof = 1

So he would have 18 hits per location, be calling triple and have a few extra things to make him interesting. More importantly, he will have a long sword and a shield. Almost every blow he swings will connect with the absent blade and cause them damage. The Absent blade will massively struggle to even land a blow. The absent blade has to hit the larkant 18 times to one location to take him down. The larkant has to hit the absent blade twice anywhere at all, and then twice to one location to take him out. This is an absent blade that is 31 skill higher, and you could take out 9 skill of the larkants and it not make any difference to who will win. In fact, you could take out 19 skill and have the Larkant as starting, lose a damage grade and a location hit and the fight is still a no brainer. You can then add another 30 skill to the serkanian to give them an extra damage grade and a couple more parries/dex/hits, and it's 'still' a no brainer. Alternatively, if you gave the Serkanian leg sweep, but the larkant had the very standard steady... negated. Disarm might give them a better chance, but is the Serkanian then going to be able to hit the Larkant enough times before he picks up his sword? I doubt it...

I notice here that disarm doesn't have an essence cost any more? Is that deliberate? If not, then that IS broken, except in the fact that without the old parries, you are pretty much required to take damage to your arm to use it, in which case it suddenly becomes crap... Quad.... Disarm! Ha, you dropped your weapon for a few seconds... but err... I can't use my arm any more...

Introduce old parry and they then have a chance, but even then will be unable to defend nearly as well as the larkant, but that is fair enough because they have some (extremely limited) healing. Though the balance is still not there...

Now, I use the above reasoning despite the fact that I hate resorting to rules lawyering because it's the best way to make the point clear. What it's not taking into account is the mass of other factors in the context, like, what happens when the serkanian gets hit unaware? What happens when a ghoul is running around doing touch paralysis, or the Celebrant with touch of death? What happens when they're fighting 2 or more opponents? Can they cover as much of their body then as with a shield?

You are penalising this rule because

a) Some people played it very well and parried very well and as a result people thought it unfair because I'm sure in typical monster frustration they got narked that they weren't hurting the party which is an attitude to be discouraged not encouraged. Monsters get really hacked off with characters they beat loads and don't die. They get hacked off with players who seem to have endless amounts of essence. They get hacked off about players who used their abilities well and destroyed the uber encounter of doom that they were really looking forward to. They get hacked off because the Knight with the tower shield is too good and they just can't land a blow.

b) a tiny tiny tiny number abused it (I'll take your word on this as I never saw it myself), in which case why were they not pulled up on it at the time and told they were doing it wrong, or someone report it to a ref to pull them up on it and have their arms fall off like it was said in the original rules?

I have played with this ability in systems before (Labyrinthe), and it is a very fair balance to the disadvantages. People are just looking at it in from an entirely wrong angle. Reduce the effectiveness for shaded and silent blades perhaps, as they do have weapons and a bit of armour, or make the skills a higher threshold for more points, or make it so the silent/shaded can't get forleg or whatever, but I disagree even with that.


Also yes, Pete's idea was very cool. It got passed over a bit.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:27 pm

Peter Levy wrote:
Sizel wrote:How about making FA & FL Parries a Damage Reduction equal to the character's DAC, and only useable in situations when they can use said DAC?


It scales in effectiveness as characters gain XP
Deal with the problem of wearing armour + using it at the same time
_
Pete


i love this idea. lots.


My only issue with this, if we are going with the "spirit" of Serkanians. They were always a martial race and FAP/FLP was open to martial classes. So the combatant classes of Serke Kemi would get no real benefit as they wouldn't have much/any dex.

Imo, this reduces the effectiveness of the skill so dramatically that it would make it next to useless.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Will » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:32 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:My only issue with this, if we are going with the "spirit" of Serkanians. They were always a martial race and FAP/FLP was open to martial classes. So the combatant classes of Serke Kemi would get no real benefit as they wouldn't have much/any dex.

Imo, this reduces the effectiveness of the skill so dramatically that it would make it next to useless.


Could make the base cost of the parries cheaper, or just a base class feature.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:33 pm

Imo, limiting it such should be enough

Forearm parry
8 skill
Takes no damage from finger tips to elbows when actively attempting to parry a weapon blow.

Actively is defined as not striking and actually putting your arm in the way/trying to turn the weapon blow aside.

This skill may not be used in conjunction with a 2 handed weapon used in 2 hands or when wearing more than studded leather armour.


Foreleg parry
12 skill
Takes no damage from toes to knees when actively attempting to parry a weapon blow.

Actively is defined as not striking and actually putting your leg in the way/trying to turn the weapon blow aside.

This skill may not be used when wearing more than studded leather armour.


Needs some terminology tidy up but doesn't seem unbalanced or over powered and fits with the oriental mythos.
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:36 pm

Will wrote:
Hatsuo1980 wrote:My only issue with this, if we are going with the "spirit" of Serkanians. They were always a martial race and FAP/FLP was open to martial classes. So the combatant classes of Serke Kemi would get no real benefit as they wouldn't have much/any dex.

Imo, this reduces the effectiveness of the skill so dramatically that it would make it next to useless.


Could make the base cost of the parries cheaper, or just a base class feature.


Even if it becomes a class feature or a skill reduction, does the skill become decent when you can't afford the dex?

Lets say you are a +1 stealth class. It's 6, 7, 8 (21 total) to be able to parry triples. By the time you can parry triples I would envisage more monsters would be doing quad or quin than triple so the 21 skill becomes wasted.

Additionally, if you want to wear armour of a certain amount, the amount of dex you have becomes reduced.

This approach seems to disadvantage the non-stealth modifier classes and it wasn't generally the stealth ones that were played before anyway
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Stevie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:36 pm

My current vote.

Andys wording as above, but including something like "Where a weapon of Bastard Sword Length (maybe set inches to stop those loooooooong 1H from being used) Inch or more is being used, you may not parry using any limbs wielding the weapon."

So you could have a 2H, see an incoming blow and switch so that you're holding it only in your right hand (not striking) and move your left arm to parry a blow, before quickly moving your left hand back to your weapon so that you can actively fight.


So basically the gentlemans ruling would be "If it's a medium/longish weapon and it's in your hand you can't parry. If your hands free, or you've only got a short weapon, feel free to."

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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:45 pm

I like this. Dunno if it's a bit complicated/can be deliberately misinterpreted but I do like it :)
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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Stevie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:50 pm

"If whilst attempting to FAP you are still wielding a 2H weapon in both hands while parrying, you take 1/2 damage rounded up. As per un-trained shield use"

So basically if you don't have time to move the weapon into one hand and have the other free to parry you can still intercept part of the blow. Dunno whether it's an addition worth considering.

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Re: fap flap fap flap

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:57 pm

Stevie wrote:"If whilst attempting to FAP you are still wielding a 2H weapon


Lolololololololololololol
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