Monsters and Fighting

A general place for you to discuss Heart of Pargon and ask the team any questions that you have about anything. Upcoming events will be listed here.

Moderators: Ref, Senior Refs

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 11:30 am

While we are on the subject (elsewhere) of fighting one blow per second.

I've had a few ideas I want to discuss. How do people feel about combat at HoP at the moment? Are we doing enough?

I know that I personally like to follow through with blows (bow chika), something Will taught me, which makes fighting much more cinematic and believable. I used to do this when playing a tanky character so I didn't really mind that it was inefficient and that net I take more damage because I leave myself open to counter. I enjoyed it, and it made it more immersive to me.

Lately I've been playing a katana wielding Serkanian. I've found it much harder to fight, usually I do the 3 guards and stances, usually go for the top of the head as katanas are pretty fast and have good reach, however I can't fight like a cheesy samurai movie because I'm far too squishy to take the extra damage.

Now there is a point to this.

On the last event Sonny (as Panda) did some epic fighting, picking people up, throwing them around (all safely of course), and he ended up dying from taking damage, which, to be honest, seemed a bit rubbish. After the event we talked about it and I said that if he's being awesome, he shouldn't take damage that realistically isn't going to do anything (if you have grabbed an enemy in a bear hug, they can't unarmed combat you to death despite yelling quad at the top of their voice). Sonny wanted to unique this. Edd and I suggested he just cheat instead.

I think part of the issue is with players, we are lazy, we don't wanna take damage which makes us take conservative and safe blows (bow chika). The other part of the issue is with monsters who, in some cases, are slow to react, or don't react at all from taking damage from players. On low level adventures I was hitting amd with a two hander (six points) and monsters are barely flinching. Because they don't flinch, any time I try a cheesy samurai slice, they hit me back. This means I stop trying to follow through, to step through, so I take these boring chops which look pretty crappy despite ticking the 'over the shoulder' box.

I'm not blaming monsters, I know for example that my two favourite monsters (Sonny and Chee in case anyone cares) always always ALWAYS reel from blows and they are a joy to RP with.

So here is a suggestion that i'd like to put forward for criticism.

All monsters are statted with less hits.
All monsters ONLY take damage from epic blows.
All monsters must react to blows (unless it is otherwise roleplay appropriate)

Instead of a 20 hit zombie which dies to boring samurai chops, have a ten hit zombie which can only be killed by a katana to the chest, stepping through and pushing on the weapon!

It looks much better, and actually probably wouldn't make any difference to the difficulty of the adventure.

Also, I owe a cookie to anyone who bothered to read this insane post and it's jargon.

Luke
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed May 14, 2014 12:32 pm

All monsters ONLY take damage from epic blows.


Seems a bad idea. Bows/Crossbow are rarely epic. Daggers are rarely epic.

I like what you are trying to achieve but this feels to much
............................................................................Image

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 12:52 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:
All monsters ONLY take damage from epic blows.


Seems a bad idea. Bows/Crossbow are rarely epic. Daggers are rarely epic.

I like what you are trying to achieve but this feels to much



Yeah I see what you mean, I still feel like they can be epic, and more should be done from the players and monsters.
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed May 14, 2014 12:56 pm

It's very easy to make a general weapon look epic, especially larger weapons. There's only a certain amount of ways to fire a bow.

Also, does this then become a case of "well, I didn't think it was Epic, I won't take any damage" or "he hit me in the back, i didn't see it, probably wasn't epic".

Stats work. Fight cooler.
............................................................................Image

User avatar
Will
Over 9000!!!!
Posts: 9650
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:51 pm
Location: Exeter, Velmaneth, Azeroth, The Three Kingdoms, Labyrinthia...
Contact:

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Will » Wed May 14, 2014 1:08 pm

This, strangely, links perfectly into something I was discussing elsewhere.

More on that later.
Saga 2015 will be entirely celebrating and drinking with nothing bad happening and no bad guys showing up at all ever

willmhudson
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:35 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby willmhudson » Wed May 14, 2014 1:19 pm

I'm a strong believer in the rule of cool. If it seems cool, just do it, usually no one will complain unless you directly effected their character or blatantly broke some of the refs careful plot. Against monster waves, if you are doing amazing heroic fighting, and your opponent is just tapping you back I wouldn't begrudge you for discounting a couple of those hits. By the same token, if someone spent 20 mins sneaking up on you and slit your throat from behind i'd expect you to go with the flow. I guess what i'm saying is that yes, I agree, sometimes stats get in the way of a players full potential.

I'm also not a massive fan of damage grades in general, but that is probably a discussion for another day....

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 1:30 pm

What better day than today!! I hate damage grades!

I'm eager to read what W.Power has to say.

I think 'fight cooler' is a total cop out. I get what you mean about the bow, and in that situation it's the monsters job to reel with that blow, how it was struck. If the shot only grazed you then take a little, if it hit you in the knee then struggle to walk.

Same with daggers, give the player the benefit of the doubt, of course opinions come into it but not bothering for the sake of 'at some point it may be complicated' is laziness.
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Phil.Priest
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:55 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Phil.Priest » Wed May 14, 2014 2:03 pm

So we remove damage grades...

Which means things like Strength and Weapon Profs are obsolete...

Your then depending on monsters and players to decide how hurt they are from a hit.

Which removes hit points.

Might as well remove damaging spells as they specify how much damage is caused and thats now down to personal choice...



I admit that I haven't read most of the thread, just the last couple of posts, so I may have gone off the mark... but IDK :)
Kalist, Hope-Bringer, The Emissary of Hope
Lazar, God of Darkness
D'arvan Weyoun of House Aerielys
"Every man is guilty of all the good he didn't do"

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 2:05 pm

I really don't see the problem with any of the above.

What you have said is ''it will be difficult and involve a lot of change''.

Change is exciting, and has potential for improvement.
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 2:07 pm

I mean when I describe HoP to people I immediately go in with the numbers we ridiculously yell, and how strength and weapon profs make the game so amazingly interesting and immersive... alternatively that's absolute bullshit, instead I talk about how characters inform the world plot, and the logic of the world is in everyone part of everything.

No-one likes HoP for stats, we love it for the story.

Just worth thinking about maybe.
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed May 14, 2014 2:07 pm

The ramifications of removing damage grades would be, in my opinion:

1 - Rewriting the magic system. DR spells, damaging spells (both soul based and normal damage based), protective spells would all need changing.

2 - 2 classes at least would need completely rewriting.

3 - The special materials need completely rewriting

4 - Hit's per need rewriting.

5 - Damage reductions, protective skills/abilities, profs, damaging skills/abilities need rewriting.

6 - Parts of Neuronicists need rewriting.

And this is just at a first thought.

Damage grades and things related to damage are so inherent in the rules, you'd basically have to start again from the ground up.
............................................................................Image

willmhudson
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:35 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby willmhudson » Wed May 14, 2014 2:07 pm

You are totally right about all of your points Phil. Just removing damage grades from HoP, as it stands, doesnt work. If it were to happen it would be a huge overhaul.

I was just stating my preference for rules light/low hit systems.

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 2:09 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:The ramifications of removing damage grades would be, in my opinion:

1 - Rewriting the magic system. DR spells, damaging spells (both soul based and normal damage based), protective spells would all need changing.

2 - 2 classes at least would need completely rewriting.

3 - The special materials need completely rewriting

4 - Hit's per need rewriting.

5 - Damage reductions, protective skills/abilities, profs, damaging skills/abilities need rewriting.

6 - Parts of Neuronicists need rewriting.

And this is just at a first thought.

Damage grades and things related to damage are so inherent in the rules, you'd basically have to start again from the ground up.




YOU MEAN IT WOULDN'T BE EASY?! HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN SO SHORT SIGHTED????
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

willmhudson
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:35 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby willmhudson » Wed May 14, 2014 2:11 pm

Stats should be there to facilitate roleplay, in my opinion. Having too much 'stuff' can be quite damaging sometimes. HoP is actually one of the stronger LRPs, of the ones I go to, for roleplay. Its also pretty stat heavy. So, good going there!

Also, should just say that i'm not bashing HoP, there is a lot to love about this system.
Last edited by willmhudson on Wed May 14, 2014 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Wed May 14, 2014 2:13 pm

Be specific, what do you love about the system? I'd interested to know from a veteran of other systems :)
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer


Return to “Discussion and Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest