Monsters and Fighting

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Luke
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Thu May 15, 2014 2:30 pm

Hatsuo1980 wrote:Everyone should fight cooler, that seems to be agreed. If monsters have stats, they should play their stats. If you want fights to work differently, perhaps we need to stat differently. Give monsters, where suitable, 1/2 effects from specific things, immunities to specific things but make them play the stats they are given.


Okay, this is the main thing I wanted out of this discussion, despite being fanatical to get reactions.

What ways could be achieve this? We have knockdown and knockback etc, but do we need a hard rule to make sure this happens? Or do we rely on good grace. My only issue with the latter is that it's good in theory and not so good in practice. Any ideas on how we can encourage both players and monsters to do this?

On the event we just ran we definitely gave things exact stats, every monster was preplanned and written down with it's immunities etc underneath. Yet I still think some fights weren't as cool as they could be.

Really I'm just trying to get some ideas of how we can make fights better, and I feel like reacting to blows is the key.
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rachel
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby rachel » Thu May 15, 2014 11:01 pm

You could try telling the monsters the effect you want them to have rather than a finite number of hits etc. Yep, this relies completely on trust (and having an experienced monster crew) but so does giving monsters hits. I've seen monsters refuse to die, or take far more hits than they should have, when I'm pretty sure that's not because the ref told them they had 200 hits ;) Mostly when they're inexperienced. Personally I find it hard to make a fight look epic and count in my head, especially if I have 3 players surrounding me. But if a ref tells me they want me to be pretty easy to kill, then i just fall down really quick to someone calling quad, and quite quick to someone calling singles. Or if I'm meant to be a challenge then I can do massive, more epic blows because I give myself a lot more hits.
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Will
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Will » Thu May 15, 2014 11:06 pm

I generally go with level of difficulty hits rather than numbers these days unless pushed.

My argument though is that we are a system of stats, so either we get rid of stats and switch to an entirely trust based gun fest style system which isn't really on the table, or we sort the stat issue so that it enables that epicness we want better.

Significantly limited damage grades and increased cool effect calls, I believe, is a way to achieve that within the rules, alongside reinforcement of that ethos of epicness.
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Alexander
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Alexander » Sat May 17, 2014 3:44 pm

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Stevie
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Stevie » Sat May 17, 2014 4:51 pm

Alexander wrote:
I would like to apologise if I seemed to be grumpy last event. I think it was partly because I was a bit sleepy at the time, and possibly partly because I might have been unhappy because four of the weapons I brought with me were not allowed because they had steel cores which are unsafe, and at the end of the event I was unhappy because my mother had arrived early which meant I had to pack and leave immediately, and could not stay to chat or help with anything.


No worries at all buddy, it was nice seeing you there. Next one is at the end of June if you can make it.

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Alexander
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Alexander » Sat May 17, 2014 7:55 pm

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Will
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Will » Sat May 17, 2014 8:31 pm

I'd be wary of applying any if at all real life versions/realism in relation to fighting to LARP :)
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Dom » Sat May 17, 2014 9:11 pm

In my experience larp fighting is a lot closer to saber fencing more than other sword work styles. But there are people that train with long swords etc but with fencing rules that could teach us a lot.
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby andrewbucknell » Mon May 26, 2014 1:04 pm

reduce hits of monsters and players so that both parties collapse quickly to one or two blows thus you get a parrying style combat. HoP is kind of a low hit system for players and a higher hit system for the monsters or so it seems.

Nice to be the cause of change. :-) [damage focus goes well with serkanian chi !! as does backstab ]

Apologies if the labby fast combat contributed anything to the problem, being old I cant swing that fast anymore honest... :-)

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Luke
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Luke » Mon May 26, 2014 8:17 pm

I like to think of hop stats as final fantasy stats

Players high dmg low health
Monsters low dmg high health

I think I am just going to cheat next event. (within reason).

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Alexander
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Alexander » Mon May 26, 2014 8:24 pm

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Edd
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Edd » Mon May 26, 2014 9:09 pm

Charlie, I can see where you are coming from, but basing anything in a fantasy game on realism doesn't work for me. I can't take a person stabbing me in the arm any more than I can leap 20 foot or shoot a fireball from my hand. The numbers we call represent a skill with weapons that we don't personally have. The number of hits we can take represent a fortitude we don't personally have.

If you want to be able to kill people in one blow, then re-enactment is the way to go, not LARP. If someone has 5 hits to an arm and has taken 3 of them - he is still injured to that arm. I'd want someone to role-play that, but they don't have to if they don't want to. Some people get a kick from just playing their stats to the letter, it's perfectly within the rules to do so, and if they enjoy it then I tend to leave them to it and fight with them. Other people will happily fall over if someone has successfully snuck up behind them and slit their throat, no matter how many hits or what damage they are meant to be dealing. We're going to have to accept that both styles of play are valid.

Ultimately HoP is a game, based in fantasy, and my take on it all is to be versatile - if someone wants to lose an arm in one blow, then let them! If they don't, then fight it out with them. For example, I know that Chee or Sonny are both awesome grapplers, and I've had some of the best moments throwing Chee around (with both of us ignoring stats) or darting around Sonny and leaping on his back to lay into him. However, I've also had some beautifully complicated stat plays with both of them. Learn who likes what and adapt - then we can all enjoy the game together. :)
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Alexander
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Alexander » Tue May 27, 2014 8:27 am

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Ben
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Ben » Tue May 27, 2014 10:13 am

A damage call should only be called appropriately. Just because you can call 10 doesn't mean you should all the time: it should be seen as the maximum you can do when you get the perfect swing and hit the target perfectly, when you've had time to sharpen your sword, when you're fed and rested but also when you're warmed up. It should probably be in the rulebook (not as a rule but as a piece of guidance).

You might like the combat at one of the fest systems better (for example Curious Pastimes). Of the 1000 people there, 95% of people will have 1 or 2 hits per location (+armour) and 99% of people will be calling single. However, they still suffer similar problems: firstly, when most people are playing a monster they don't care about dying so will happily die if they can take you with them. Secondly they know that all they need to do is tap you on the head twice (assuming you don't have a helmet) and you're on the floor. They don't need to get a good swing because they can excuse the taps as being for safety.

So, yeah, roleplay is not just the talking between fights: you can roleplay while fighting.
1) Players: don't call your maximum damage (call about half of it the majority of the time)
2) Monsters: unless you're playing something unintelligent (eg undead, rabid animal, berserker), care about being hurt and dying. Generally you don't want to be stabbed: IC you don't know how many hits you can take and you don't want to die. If you;re a bandit, is this fight worth it? If you've just seen your colleagues cut down, would it be better to get reinforcements? Is what will happen if you get caught by Lord Evil (or whoever you're working for) worse than just being killed here?
Try surrendering, bargaining, pleading, escaping.
3) Everyone: react to blows - to the force, to the pain.
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Sizel
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Re: Monsters and Fighting

Postby Sizel » Wed May 28, 2014 7:07 am

1) Players: don't call your maximum damage (call about half of it the majority of the time)


Seems a bit harsh - If I've spent the XP to be able to call '10', but am only calling '5' for about half the blows I'm landing, doesn't that mean I've wasted a lot of my XP on something I'm not using? It's a bit different with abilities that cost Essence to use, they are clearly something that's big and special and unusual. But my grades of Strength or my Weapon Masteries are always "on".


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Thus end some things that I myself think are problems, and after this, there is something in a different category, something that is just my own personal preference.


There a lot of LRP systems "out there". I've even been to a few of them.
Every system seems to have this ongoing debate about the "right" way to fight.
Some go with low hits, some with high.
Some impose rules on how often you can land blows, or how often you can use skills, or minimum lengths for weapon blows.
Everyone agrees that they want fights to feel epic and cool and challenging and fun.
Yet no one can agree on what makes that happen, and the discussions continue.

For what it's worth I think HoP does a pretty darn good job of getting it right.
They haven't bothered with too much regulation and minutiae.
Instead they've just said "go and have fun" with it.
The monster team generally fights in a way that encourages cool fighting (by doing it themselves).

The XP system works to allow players who are not fit athletes to play stonking warrior types and simultaneously rewards someone role-playing a character who is not so good at fighting.

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In my experience truly Low Hit systems can compound the "tippy tappy" problem - because first blow wins the fight there's even more motivation to resort to less cool fighting styles and get your blow in first.
Truly High Hit systems, with fights lasting ages, can be less fun as there's no feel of threat/danger other than through attrition.

Of the various systems I've played Heart of Pargon and Frail Realities are the two whose style and statting come as close to feeling "right" that I've yet found: Combats don't go on for too long, there's always some level of danger involved in fighting. Everyone's there to have fun with it all, and people are not out to "win" the game by proving that they are OOC "the best"...
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