Magic discussion

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Luke
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Magic discussion

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:49 am

It's been about a week since I made someone on here rage so here we go!

Well we sort of half came to an agreement about damage grades, we want to keep them but stat them down.

So what about magic?

At the moment I think the specialist spells, and the way the spheres are organised gives real flavour to the elements. Water is very restorative, Earth is very protective etc. So firstly, great job on that and I don't want to detract from the excellent work that has been done.

But here is a suggestion for discussion and probably dismissal.

Death and Life have amazing flavour because of the alignment restrictions, and also that Death has a unique damage pool (soul damage) and life does too (holy).

Fire however, the element of raw damage has very little impact, even after the rework.

Now to me, HoP casters have always been useful for their versatility, not for their output (with some exceptions), better to hit someone with a sword than cast a bolt, and better to enchant a weapon than keep casting strikes. Even with added effects like fear, or area damage, fire (and all storms for that matter) come out short.

So a few solutions:

Nerf weapon damage to balance out (as has been discussed)

Buff magic damage (pretty shoddy fix, and creates more problems)

Reduce defences to magic to make it more impactful (but here the issue isn't volume of damage, it's the fact that a sword is free and magic has a cost of essence)

Make magic free (no. way.)

Or...

What about removing all damaging spells from the elemental list. Water keeps some area damage, fire keeps it's spells (maybe even bolt and strike etc). Impode stays in meta. That way each sphere has it's own signature damage spells, which each have their uses in different situations.

I guess in a way it's admitting that in HoP no matter how much you try, unless you are Kazrazil (and I'm not convinced the uniques team wouldn't knock him down a peg) you are a mage for the versatility, not to be boomy boomy man.

It's just a thought, based heavily on opinion. Whad'ya think?

I should mention, the overall goal is to add flavour to the spheres, but also to give fire something that is special. Effectively by removing damage from the other spheres, except for the spells which characterise them, like despair, holy smite, implode etc.

INB4: Andy: Terrible.
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Hatsuo1980
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:26 am

Imo reducing weapon damage doesn't solve the issue of how viable magic damage is. You are correct that a sword is free and a spell isn't.

If you take away damaging spells, or the bulk of them, from all the spheres you take away a part of their versatility. Would this prevent or reduce monsters being set with magic only hits/ranged magic hits/last hit ranged? Is this something we want to encourage?

Kaz excluded, a "damage caster" has never worked in HoP to my knowledge and, honestly, the most effective damage caster type is death magic (soul damage scales much better than bolts/strikes).

While I don't disagree that fire doesn't feel very unique, I don't think stripping things from every other sphere is the correct way of changing that unless what we want is no damaging mages at all. I know it hasn't been done properly but cutting off an entire archetype, or limiting it, just feels...wrong.

I'm sure there are other approaches to achieve what you want without reduces peoples choices.
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Thom
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Thom » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:44 am

I think that Waxing Flames as the Standard Fire Specialist Perk has done a lot to help Fire casters be bolty mages. It is true that I've never really been able to spam bolts as a Light Mage (Unless I'm under Power Font, or the Shadow Creature Shadow Striked me...) but I have used them a fair amount more for versatility.

I agree that the Magic system is incredibly well flavoured but also that Fire's high-end spells especially are perhaps in need of a look. Honestly, without checking I don't know the difference between Hellfire and Inferno, except they both do mass damage. I've never been a fan of Mass Damage spells really anyway, but I think the bonus effects from a lot of them make them confusing to the point of uselessness (Whereas I like Internal Combustion- It's relatively simple and makes sense, plus single target)

Fire in all the systems I've played (Both of them) is always a tricky one to balance, but I've always though little extras would help make them playable more than mass damage spells do- Blasts that cause a Knockdown (Versatility as well as damage), or just Ranged Single-Target Fire attacks that leave the target Ignited.

I actually like the changes brought into Fire and have been tempted since Waxing Flames to play a Fire caster. It's all about picking your moment to strike

Luke
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:08 pm

Yeah those are both very fair assessments.

I'm not sure how much limiting choice is an issue, because I don't feel like anyone plays boomy mages anyway, and they certainly don't take a sphere for the elemental damage spells. Which makes me think that by removing those choices fire becomes more viable... not sure.

What about a spell that allows you to 'doublecast' fire spells for 5 minutes. Or one that adds effects to damaging fire spells for five minutes, knockback, stun, knockdown, ignite etc.

I don't think they need to be big spells, maybe circle 2/3, at about 5 or 6 essence. I think they could bring a lot of flavour.

Even fire burning through DRs. I'd love it if Ignite melted down Fire DRs, allowing you to cast it, then spam fire spells.

All a couple of ideas. Not needed to be taken too seriously.
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Hatsuo1980
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:13 pm

Luke wrote:Yeah those are both very fair assessments.

I'm not sure how much limiting choice is an issue, because I don't feel like anyone plays boomy mages anyway, and they certainly don't take a sphere for the elemental damage spells. Which makes me think that by removing those choices fire becomes more viable... not sure.


It's not about playing an air mage to be a "boomy" mage, it's about limiting versatility. I disagree that this would mage fire more viable. The uniques system is there to expand upon what already exists in the system. While maybe not executed perfectly, fire is clearly aimed at being the "boomy" mage. You want to be better at it, use the uniques system to enhance it

What about a spell that allows you to 'doublecast' fire spells for 5 minutes. Or one that adds effects to damaging fire spells for five minutes, knockback, stun, knockdown, ignite etc.


I think there is a circle 6 spell that means your fire spells do double damage for 5 minutes already. The other things could be quite cool
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Luke
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:18 pm

Yeah there is, I meant more 'fire bolt, fire bolt' which allows DRs to come into play more, or cast on seperate targets etc.

Not to be taken with the ignite thing mind you :P
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Thom
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Thom » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:22 pm

The Main issue for me is that if you have an Elemental Sphere already, there is no need to buy Fire Magic. While you can supplement almost any combination of colours of magic with each other, Fire is never needed as a secondary colour.

Adding stuff to their standard dart/bolt/strike/blast is, IMO the best way to combat this, as it stops one of the big issues for Bolty mages that is monsters, after 2 encounters, will just start to charge at you.

Hatsuo1980
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:24 pm

Luke wrote:Yeah there is, I meant more 'fire bolt, fire bolt' which allows DRs to come into play more, or cast on seperate targets etc.

Not to be taken with the ignite thing mind you :P


I thought you wanted DRs to magic to be reduced. Higher damage is impacted less by DRs so that would be more inline with one of your original comments, right?
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Phil.Priest
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Phil.Priest » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:42 pm

Some circle 6 fire spells do what you want already...
Chains of Fire = 14? essence for 5 minutes of free bolting/striking @ 1 essence - assuming you have -1 casting as specialist
Conflagration = 5 per loc blast

I almost want to say that Barrage should be Fire only and not available to all elements.

Knock-on effects attached to fire spells would work - I'd be more inclined to say unique it or its put under Specialist skills for Fire only... (but then, what do you give to the other elements?)

Dart: Knockdown (water cannon)
Bolt: knockback (whirlwind)
Strike: Halt (err... halt)
Blast: Disarm
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Thom
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Thom » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:55 pm

Maybe we could make all standard Elemental Blasts cause a knockdown. Adds incentive to actually cast Blast against monsters (which often have HTK rather than Hits per). Although to be fair this doesn't actually help Fire specifically...

Luke
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:58 pm

I understand what you are saying about circle 6, but to me I think that's too long to wait for a character to feel flavourful. I don't wanna play a fire mage for 120 skill just so being a fire mage feels right.

I don't think you should give anything to the other elements, they have buckets of versatility that fire doesn't have.

As for DRs and higher damage, it's all a see saw that would need to be addressed of course, higher flat damage just worries me because I think it becomes unfair too quickly. I'm more concerned with making fire viable/special, rather than strong. Though of course they do go hand in hand.
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Phil.Priest
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Phil.Priest » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:41 pm

I disagree.

All out offensive fire mage? Fine. But why would you use essence on loads of versatility? You wouldn't. Its pretty much like another character who just takes defense and damage - has no party 'buffs' or contribution other than damage and what they personally bring to the party (reading, working out puzzles etc.)

I take back what I said about about specialist skills: Add new spells that are the same as dart/strike/blast/storm that are similar to Flaming Apparition (the bolt variant), but with an additional effect.

This gives a Fire Mage some of the versatility, but incorporates it with damage.

You could even go as far to give their Fire Shield a damage element - C1 shield - someone hits you, a dart fires off. C2 Bolt. C3 Strike. C4 Blast. C5 ?.
Kalist, Hope-Bringer, The Emissary of Hope
Lazar, God of Darkness
D'arvan Weyoun of House Aerielys
"Every man is guilty of all the good he didn't do"

Luke
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:54 pm

I thought thats what we were discussing anyway? Giving fire spells knockback and down etc. I assumed they would be new spells. probably just miscommunicating. Apologies.

Maybe a stronger version of scald as well. So it targets every location. Bit like thirst, freeze, paralysis etc kind of take an enemy out of the game without too much damage, but can still be persistenced. etc.
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Phil.Priest
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Phil.Priest » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:03 pm

Scorching Blast - Scald on arms/legs + blast!
Kalist, Hope-Bringer, The Emissary of Hope
Lazar, God of Darkness
D'arvan Weyoun of House Aerielys
"Every man is guilty of all the good he didn't do"

Luke
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Re: Magic discussion

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:23 pm

Into it.
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