New Race: Varyan

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Ben
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New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:51 am

Proposition for a new human tribe

Varyan

Martial: -1
Academic: 0
Stealth: +1

1 essence
Ignite (touch)
A blessing from Varya to assist in the destruction of corpses before they rise.

2 essence
Gravenail Strike
Allows a single blow to count as Gravenail (triple damage against undead)

Lay Healer
All non-undead Varyans (including non-spellcasters) can learn circle 1 life. If your magic ability modifier is N/A this circle costs 6 + your academic modifier. This also allows you to choose to be a Life Specialist granting access to buy the abilities only available to Life Specialists (e.g. immunity to Death Magic) - you can still only be a specialist in one element however.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Erynion » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:05 pm

I like this.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Littleben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:56 pm

Me too.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Luke » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:13 pm

Seems tough, but I really like it :)
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Will » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:33 pm

The ignite one seems a little less well fitting. Perhaps something more martial/hardy as they are essentially a martial people.

Also, lay healer should probably have an additional benefit for classes that can buy life anyway.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:51 pm

"Ignite" was a flavour thing. Rename it to "Holy Fire" and say it really hurts undead as well as burning bodies?

lay healer should probably have an additional benefit for classes that can buy life anyway


they are essentially a martial people


You might be right though...how about..."if you already have access to buy life magic, you gain an additional -1 modifier to buying circles of life magic"

This is in line with Elves (who get a -1 to buying circles of their own element to make up their abilities becoming superfluous if they buy circles in that sphere).
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Will » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:58 pm

What I meant in relation to being a martial people was that the Lay Healer is fairly non martial and strong (but cool) and so perhaps the other bits should be more martial.

Making sure Lay Healer has additional benefit for those that CAN cast life magic helps the inevitable character creation thought process that will go "Why would I be a Varyan Celebrant?"
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:11 pm

Will wrote:"Why would I be a Varyan Celebrant?"


Roleplay?

However, if we imagine someone else saying it:

Edd wrote:"Why would I be a Varyan Celebrant?"


Then I think the -1 to buying circles of Life might do it. Edd?


From a martial character point of view, comparing to Larkant, I'm gaining a couple of interesting abilities and Life magic. I'm losing Persistance and a point of soul (which I can buy even though Persistence won't be quite as cheap to use)...I think I'd be tempted by Varyan. Could lose ignite if people don't like it in return for something else but wouldn't want to replace it with anything 'good' or I don't think Edd I'd go with Larkant at all.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Edd » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:51 pm

**Munchkin glasses on...hell, they're always on ;)**

Far too tough. It's cool to be a warrior with life magic - so far the only way to do it as a human is to be a telefret and take life as your free circle - but your mods are shit. Here, you get access to life magic (as I found as a life elf a little life magic is nice to have as a bonus) and an anti undead thing and ignite (okay, not broken but cool - espicially if it hurts the undead.) And no makeup?! I think the abilitys are fine but they need a restriction - you're getting some cool abilities that are on par with an elf imo as aposed to the other human tribes (compare this to an everni...I dare you) and you don't have to snazz up.

I propose the following:
Keep the current benefits as they are. Add in the following disbenefit:
Suffer not the undead to live.
All Varyans have spent their lives fighting the undead. If a Varyan descovers an undead they MUST kill it. It does not need to be an all out beserk rage, but no matter current goal it changes to 'destroy that undead' - this can be through guile or stealth but they must not get away (that adventure.). Any Varyan who fails to do so gains no skill or essence that adventure and loses all access to Varyan innates until a referee says otherwise.

This may get people killed, but it should - the Varyans hate undead, and this restriction would help balance things.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Will » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:31 pm

Ben wrote:Roleplay?


Trolololololol!

But yes, fair.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Littleben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:30 pm

@Edd I don't like all of your suggestion for the disbenefit. If I'm starting a character and their is a much stronger undead in the party, I have to attempt to kill them or (in terms of skill and essence I.E. reward for playing and possibly RP well) is discounted? Sounds anti-fun to me. If you were to go along the lines of this I would have to say that unless it is not unreasonable. You wouldn't charge out of your city walls just to kill some undead because that's who you hate. You defend and slay undead as they try to attack, therefore killing a greater number.

Additionally I may be missing something but I don't see how the benefits are that much greater than the other races that you have mentioned. The telefret warrior as you have mentioned (I'm looking to play something similar and maybe now this race at Saga) get's the circle one life FREE and 5 essence and so on. Here, you get access to circle 1 life (only?) for 6 base cost. On saga, this will be 7/10 of my skill as a varyan / warrior at this rate. Along side that, I get ignite (which appears to be RP purposes mainly) and gravenail blow (pretty good anti undead skill). I honestly don't know the elf benefits but doesn't seem that broken as you seemed to make it out.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Edd » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:52 pm

Sure, I can see that, maybe I was a bit harsh. How is being a Varyan any different to being a Firin follower? Maybe make it so they don't lose skill or essence, but it should be 'judged harshly by the referee'. A few issues with your point Ben: i) if there is a high level undead then don't play the character - ie if its a 60 or a 120 then you should expect to have more powerful characters there. ii) make friends! I find as a group we're very accepting of PC undead - we really shouldn't be so nice to them (as we where on Sons!) get everyone to job them iii) Your telefret does get a free circle, but also has AWFUL mods for the rest of his career - -1 total to martial, means 4 skill for your first hit per. You can't even have a damage grade and hit per and a shield as a telefret 10 skill warrior. 5 essence is niether here not there as soon as you hit about 30 skill upwards. This Varyan, even if you don't get the circle of life has double in sword, 2 hits per and a shield, and can do a gravenail blow and burn the undead/other stuff.

Think the abilities are fine, but they need a restriction - and it should be about killing undead (maybe on another event, but they must declare, to the creature that they will destroy them. Thinking of Samuel or War or whatnot turning up...)
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:56 pm

I think Edd's looking longer term with the comparison between Varyan and Telefret Warrior.

Varyan Warrior buy Circle 1 life for 8 skill (due to +2 academic mod) however he buys 1HS, Extra Location and Strength for 2 each (for the first points).
Telerfret Warrior gets Circle 1 life for free (or whichever circle) and buys the first point of 1HS, Extra Loc and Strength for 4 each. By the time the've bought 4 of any of these skills they're even and the Varyan is better off for the rest of his career. 5 essence probably makes little difference when you reach about 50-60 skill.

I actually like Telerfret Warrior for Circle 1 Water and "Repair" and being able to buy skills I like to have with every character (DNW, R&W etc and even magical DRs).

Roleplay restriction...will mull it over...I can see both sides.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Edd » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm

Ben just summed up my argument better than I could :)
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Stevie » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:43 pm

I think Edd's looking longer term with the comparison between Varyan and Telefret Warrior


To be honest, you can't really make that comparison. Regardless of starting abilities, Modifiers always win. Warriors are better than Knights, Arch Mages/Celebrants better than there counterparts. If you choose a race with a -1 modifier to your key skill rather than a 0 modifier, no matter what starting abilities they get, you will quickly find yourself behind in spend.

A better comparison to make would be to see what change the race would have on it's strongest Class/Race combination. The Warrior.

Being able to purchase Circle 1 life for 8 skill if you went down the Varyan Warrior route is good. Up until a point. The notable spells in Circle 1 Life that are of use are Heal (1), Hope (1) and the two buffing spells Invigorate and Hearten. At low levels, being a warrior and being able to heal yourself is good. Strong even. But past a certain skill, it becomes redundant. There are usually healers with the ability of being able to buy Circle 2 that can do it better. The other notable factor is that at the low end of the system 8 Skill is a LOT.

I'm going into this comparing a Larkant Warrior with a Varyan Warrior at several different skill thresholds. (LOTS OF TEXT AND THEORYCRAFTING)

In my mind, although the Varyan *can* buy Circle 1 Life for the very expensive premium of 8 Skill, they would be silly to do so in their opening spend. I would conclude that both Warriors would make one of the traditional spends.

10 Skill Spend
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)

3 Hits Per, Double in O.

So here, the two Warriors would be of identical spend.

- The Larkant has 1 Extra Soul and Persistence(x5).
- The Varyan can x3 Dmg to Undead(x5 Blows)


Even with the commonplace of Undead in our adventures currently, I would still give the Larkant the Victory in this scenario.

20 Skill Spend
Larkant
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)
Extra Hits III - 4 (13 Total)
Extra Hits IV - 5 (18 Total)

5 Hits Per, Double in O

Varyan
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)
Life 1 - 8 (17 Total)

3 Hits Per, Double in O, Life 1


At this skill level the Varyan could put 3 points into either Strength or Weapon Prof, but as neither alone would add to the overall power of the Character (except in Roleplay lifting and the occasional grapple) I have kept it out of the spend.

At the skill level the Varyan can buff himself with Hearten, putting his soul on level with the Larkant and he could also Invigorate putting his hits per at 4 (Against the Larkants 5). This is the scenario where the Varyan would pull ahead. He is unable to meditate, so would be down 7 Essence to buff himself (Leaving I would say 13 as a kind estimation [Essence awards for Warriors are typically low]) So at this point the Varyan could heal/hope himself up to 13 times per day.

We must also make allowances to the Larkants Essence. He wouldn't have to spend it on buffing himself, as he is naturally stronger, leaving him more Essence to Persist or to use his Stances. We will assume both Warriors take Skirmish (Who doesn't) for each point spent the Warrior gains a global hit. In a situation where both Warriors have no armor the Larkant could Skirmish once for one Essence to negate a blow the Varyan might heal for one essence later. Now, having Heal is obviously better than Skirmish, as the Warrior could use it on Allies, and only has to use it retroactively, whereas the Larkant must spend the point and to actually be hit to pull even.

I make the Skirmish comparison to show that even whilst the Varyan pulls ahead at this skill level, it is only by a slight margin. The utility of Persistence and having more Essence spare swings a very good case for the Larkant.


30 Skill Spend
Larkant
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)
Extra Hits III - 4 (13 Total)
Extra Hits IV - 5 (18 Total)
Strength II - 3 (21 Total)
Wpn Prof II - 3 (24 Total)
Extra Hits V - 6 (30 Total)

6 Hits Per, Triple in O

Varyan
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)
Life 1 - 8 (17 Total)
Extra Hits III - 4 (21 Total)
Strength II - 3 (24 Total)
Wpn Prof II - 3 (27 Total)

4 Hits Per, Triple in O


The Varyan could opt for Extra Hits IV, but would not be able to call Triple.

At this point it's a similar story to the last scenario. The Larkant will still have 1 Hit Per more after the buffs from Invigorate/Hearten, but at this point both Characters will have more Essence which gives a slight nod to the Varyan. (Bear in mind, I don't consider in these examples the effect of Team Work. Generally the Larkant could expect that he may get an Invigorate, putting him further ahead. Likewise, the Varyan could expect to have to heal others, rather than himself, putting himself further behind.

Considering these factors it is still tight, but I believe the Varyan pulls ahead slightly.


60 Skill Spend
Larkant
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)
Extra Hits III - 4 (13 Total)
Extra Hits IV - 5 (18 Total)
Strength II - 3 (21 Total)
Wpn Prof II - 3 (24 Total)
Extra Hits V - 6 (30 Total)
1 DR Physical - 22 (52 Total)
Extra Hits VI - 7 (59 Total)

7 Hits Per, 1 DR Physical, Triple in O

Varyan
Shield Prof - 1
Extra Hits - 2 (3 Total)
Extra Hits II - 3 (5 Total)
Strength - 2 (7 Total)
Wpn Prof - 2 (9 Total)
Life 1 - 8 (17 Total)
Extra Hits III - 4 (21 Total)
Strength II - 3 (24 Total)
Wpn Prof II - 3 (27 Total)
Extra Hits IV - 4 (31 Total)
1 DR Physical - 22 (53 Total)
Persistence - 5 (58 Total)

6 Hits Per, 1 DR Physical, Triple in O


Again, nothing has really changed. In the gap between 30-60 the Varyan was pick up Persistence (although this costs him 3 Essence rather than 2). They didn't have to buy the Physical DR, they could have opted for Utility like Shatter Blow etc but their builds would have stayed roughly consistent. Again I would say it's a minor victory for the Varyan in this case


Conclusion

We've come past the magical 60 Skill threshold. At that point the Larkant can buy Regen for 7 Skill, which would act as a 1 essence Hope/Heal when he needs it *and* it has the benefit of being able to be cast when Unconscious. Although it can be argued that in combat Regen has a 2 Essence cost I think the fact that it can be cast whilst unconscious balances that out. At this point I would consider them fairly even, whilst the Varyan can catch up on hits when the Larkant buys Regen the Varyan cannot heal himself when unconscious and still spends 1 extra essence on Persistence. The only thing the Varyan does better at this point is cast his own Invigorate.

So basically, I don't think it's overpowered. Not really. Bear in mind the Larkant wins if he can get an Invigorate cast on him, and the Varyan loses every time he has to heal someone other than himself. Then we're looking into a Team Comp balance issue and I really don't have the time for that.

TL;DR - It's basically even for a Varyan Warrior vs a Larkant Warrior. I'm not really concerned by balance issues.


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