New Race: Varyan

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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:55 pm

Stevie wrote:
I think Edd's looking longer term with the comparison between Varyan and Telefret Warrior


Varyan v Telerfret
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Will » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:56 pm

I just read the TL;DR
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:01 pm

I read it.

I think that Varyan may be better at higher levels as their skill priorities are Martial, Academic, Stealth whereas Larkant are Martial, Stealth, Academic. It may just be me but I don't think most characters buy a lot from both Martial and Stealth. However buying multiple Martial and Academic might be more likely.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Littleben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:20 pm

Firstly, awaiting stevie to redo his anaylsis of Telefret vs Varyan.

Secondly, as I'm not too competent with knowing all the stats stuff I'll follow Stevie's conclusion to say that even if Larkant is that slightly bit better, the Varyan has the potential to help allies, which I understand is what they are about, protecting people. So in my eyes with what I can see in front of me, it kinda fits.

@Edd Again, I dunno, it still seems anti fun to me to think to myself "Well I'd better check who is playing what to see if I can play my character or not" and be in some scenarios where an undead could help you but you have to kill them anyway. I did quite like the idea of making it your goal to kill undead, but similar to one of the guild requirements of "attack/kill all Velnashar follows unless unreasonable, i.e. if Velnashar" sums up what I think it should be like if we go with your idea; try to kill undead unless unreasonable I.E. is a general undead which controls 10000 undead.

Otherwise I feel I'm just repeating myself.

TL;DR It seems pretty good, maybe work on a disbenefit.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:35 pm

How about:

"Varyans have lived under the heel of the undead all their lives and for this reason have an understandable hatred for them. They will not trust them, will not knowingly socialise with them and should attempt to destroy them wherever possible. Should a Varyan decide to break these restrictions they lose their racial benefits for the rest of the day unless they make some attempt to atone for their actions."
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Littleben » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:41 pm

For some clarification:

1) If you don't engage them right away due to outnumbered etc. but wait until a moment where a acceptable fight or killing can take place would you still lose benefits?

2) If you lose benefits say through socialising with an undead knowingly, when you do choose to engage would you be able to get your benefits back immediately mainly for the use of gravenail blow in order to kill the undead and therefore fulfil this objective?
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Stevie » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Ben wrote:I read it.

I think that Varyan may be better at higher levels as their skill priorities are Martial, Academic, Stealth whereas Larkant are Martial, Stealth, Academic. It may just be me but I don't think most characters buy a lot from both Martial and Stealth. However buying multiple Martial and Academic might be more likely.


It depends, if you're seriously going to dig into a separate skill pool (In this case Stealth/Academic) you might as well MC. Other than buying the Elemental/Absolute DR's, there's not much I'd buy in Academic as a Warrior. By the time you're in a position to make those kinda skill choices you are usually 100+ Skill, at which point the system balance kinda falls off a cliff and you can go separate ways with Uniques etc.

Firstly, awaiting stevie to redo his anaylsis of Telefret vs Varyan.


I mentioned there wasn't much point. You can't really compare a Martial leaning race with a Academic leaning race, they serve different ends. At that point you're not really addressing which Race is stronger, but whether Martial is stronger than Academic, which in itself is a bad question to ask as again, they serve different ends.


My general feel on the Varyan situation is, I don't consider them OP. Perhaps at late if you were looking to buy into the Magical DR's they would pull ahead slightly, but I don't think it warrants a massive dis-benefit.

Personally, the change I would implement would be.

- Restrict non-spellcasting Varyians from being a specialist. (Being able to buy Imm. Death is too strong a factor for a Warrior to pick up.)
- If engaged in combat with an Undead creature the Varyian must always be the last to leave (Except when there's multiple Varyians - They can leave at the same time or whatever order they feel like.)

Then basically dock skill/remove benefits for the day if that isn't adhered to. It isn't suicidal, as it doesn't state you have to attack them, it gives an opportunity to flee, but it reinforces the notion that the Varyian will protect others against the forces of Undeath.

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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Littleben » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:17 am

Then basically dock skill/remove benefits for the day if that isn't adhered to. It isn't suicidal, as it doesn't state you have to attack them, it gives an opportunity to flee, but it reinforces the notion that the Varyian will protect others against the forces of Undeath.


Yeah, although I would say this should be done on a specific basis judged by refs of the situation. Like, if you were being overwhlemed by undead and you protect someone casting mass TP to get out of there, I wouldn't say punish the varyian who stays behind to protect. I would say his/her job is to protect until the spell is ready to cast, then to make a tactical retreat with the rest of the party.
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Stevie » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:08 pm

Yeah, that's it. As long as they don't leave the fight where there are other non-Varyans facing off against undead.

In your situation Ben, I would say that's fine. The Varyan left no-one behind. I wouldn't expect skill to be docked.

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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Will » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:00 pm

Bump
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Stevie » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:07 pm

I think Stevie made some good points.

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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Stevie » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:07 pm

Stevie wrote:I think Stevie made some good points.


Yeah, at first I wasn't convinced, but then he won me around. That guy really has it down.

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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Stevie » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:08 pm

Stevie wrote:
Stevie wrote:I think Stevie made some good points.


Yeah, at first I wasn't convinced, but then he won me around. That guy really has it down.



Yeah, I would easily date him. That nose. *swoon*

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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Huw » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:53 pm

I like the modifiers, it's a nice idea that just because you're good with a weapon you aren't at a massive disadvantage to buying magic.


Rather than giving them the ability to Ignite things (which is useful in lots of ways other than burning corpses), make the innate a specific ability like this:

You Shall Not Rise:
Essence: Some
When cast on a recently deceased body, this creates a protection around the corpse that prevents any standard attempts to raise them as an undead for an hour. This can only be done with the consent of the departed soul and must be done within an hour of the person dying. This does nothing to living people or to corpses already under any form of undeath enchantment.
(This may or may not prevent resurrection rituals for the duration?)


Gravenail blows seems a bit powerful for a racial innate...does Blessed still exist as a damage call? Rather than massive amounts of damage, it just always hurts undead and gets through their DRs.



Also, second Stevie's point about being a life specialist: an undead-smiting warrior who's immune to Death?
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Re: New Race: Varyan

Postby Chee » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:43 pm

Is this magic encumbered?

The problem with telefret warriors is that the spell casting is encumbered so its (sometimes) not worth having a 2essence repair for 3 pts of armour (or 3ess repair for 7 pts armour and so on...) and the same goes for life magic, in comparison to a mage with battle caster or a celebrant with vow of protection/strife. Even with specialisation in water the numbers still favour having a spell casting class with a higher armour limit.

If however the varyan life magic isn’t encumbered then it is perfect for a warrior/knight etc as they can have as much armour as they need and still help themselves and others without draining all their essence for a tiny benefit.

Perhaps this could be their martial benefit Will mentioned as being a more toe-to-toe with the undead people they are used to wearing lots of armour but still being able to save each other after a gruesome undead attack. This would then make the comparison between the varyan and the telefret: Varyan: Armour wearing combat monkeys with minor healing properties. Telefret: Intellectual spell casting nerds with greater variation and flexibility.

So its not some much an question of who makes the better warrior as it is, do you want different spells and academic skills or life magic with armour and martial skills?


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