Faith spells

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Re: Faith spells

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:08 am

If it helps, think of this as a new sphere of magic. There's no reason for Gerethenax, Lavelas, Yashmanar or Danahil followers to have access to Life magic (surely only Lenamo followers should?) they just do. Same with this.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. A celebrant of Larweyella CAN take Vow of Peace. A follower of Danahil (with the correct circles) could cast domination. A follower of Lenanuki could become an assassin. It's all about the roleplay and if someone does something that doesn't work with the roleplay we can aware less skill or even remove faith.

I have a lot of issues with faith abilities. My main two are:
1) People choose which religion to follow based on what they get out of it, not the roleplay opportunities it provides.
2) We have to come up, maintain and balance them. Or...you know...kinda ignore them.

Slight rework
Where there is a choice of affecting Holy/Unholy creatures we expect a modicum of common sense: a good way is to base this on whether your character is more likely to buy Purge the Unclean or Disgust the Pure.

Spells marked * can be cast with essence equalling your faith x 4

Faith 1

Desecrate
Essence Cost: 1-20*
Duration: Instant
Range: Touch
Where most Celebrant spells imbue the power of a chosen deity, this spell is used to remove them. It can also be used on people/items/places not affected by such spells with varying levels of success at referee’s discretion.

Eternal Rest
Essence Cost: 1-20*
Duration: Until dispelled/desecrated
Range: Touch
May only be cast on a dead body. Prevents a soul from re-entering the body (e.g being raised as Undead or resurrected).

Sanctify
Essence Cost: 1-20*
Duration: Until dispelled/ desecrated
Range: Touch
This spell dedicates an item in the name of a God. This may then prevent it from being touched by any Holy/Unholy creature based on the amount of essence used.

Characters with faith in gods with very different attitudes may feel slight discomfort if they touch it (or other ill-effects at ref’s discretion).

Prayer
Essence Cost: 1-∞
Duration: As long as you wish
Range: Self
Although anyone can pray, by expending essence in the process there is more likelihood of receiving some benefit. You may talk to your deity, request assistance, question them or simply ask for guidance. Even getting a response is completely at referee’s discretion!



Faith 2

Divine Protection
Essence Cost: 3
Duration: Until used or until sunrise
Range: Touch
The next time the recipient is hit by a physical weapon the blow causes no damage as it is somehow turned aside.

Holy/Unholy Sanctuary
Essence Cost: 1-20*
Duration: 1 hour
Range: 20’ line/circle/room
By marking a line on the ground, the caster creates a divine aura which Holy/Unholy creatures may not be able to pass.


Holy/Unholy Warrior
Essence Cost: 6
Duration: 5 minutes
Range: Touch
The target of this spell receives an extra three points per location and gains an extra point of magical damage with whatever weapons they are using.

The target of this spell must be a follower of the same god as the caster and the caster cannot cast it on themselves.

Sacrifice
Essence Cost: 3
Duration: Instant
Range: Touch
You offer up a sacrifice to your chosen deity. The form of this sacrifice may take any form you choose though your deity may not accept it. It is possible that your deity may grant you aid in return.

Faith 3

Divine Intervention
Essence Cost: 10
Duration: Until sunrise
Range: Touch
The next time the recipient is hit by an unfriendly spell, it takes no effect as it is somehow deflected.

Grant Faith
Essence Cost: 10 + 1 rank of faith
Duration: The Whim of the Gods
Range: Touch
This allows the celebrant to give away a rank of his own faith to another person who either has no faith or faith in the same deity. The caster drops a rank in faith and the recipient gains it. If a particularly good choice is made, the gods may reward the caster by allowing him to keep his rank of faith. If a bad choice is made, the recipient may quickly lose the rank of faith!

Rite
Essence Cost: 1-∞
Duration: As long as you wish
Range: Self
A rite is a divine form of ritual, however rather than employing the power of a specific element to open it the circle is empowered by faith. Care should be taken in performing a Rite as anything you attempt to achieve within should be appropriate to the religion in question.

Faith 4

Fate

Essence Cost: 20
Duration: Until used
Range: Touch
This spell enables the caster to choose a single character to be Fated. A character blessed in this way is ordained for greater things and is actually able to cheat death if slain!

If the character is killed, by some miracle, they will be restored to life. Maybe the wound wasn't as bad as it looked, or the character was only hit by the flat of the blade. Perhaps the vocals for the spell weren’t correct or some part of their clothing stemmed the flow of blood. For whatever reason, they cheat death and are restored to life after 5 minutes of unconsciousness.

Any wounds received will still need treating but won't be life threatening. Although this spell lasts until used, a single character may only have one person ‘fated’ at a time and the essence used to case the spell are not available until the spell is actually used. For this reason the celebrant is usually very careful about whom they grant this exceptional boon to and it is only ever given to those the priest views as ‘worthy’, often someone to whom they owe their life or another great favour.

It may NEVER be cast by the priest on himself and a single character can only ever be Fated once in their life.

Resurrection
Essence Cost: 10
Duration: Ritual
Range: Circle
According to the Book of Vitaea, only a Celebrant of Legendary reknown can harness the powers of Resurrection whereby a ritual is performed sacrificing appropriate skill, essence and soul to accomplish it. This is the spell to open said circle.
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:21 am

This is very much an opinion and one I doubt every body shares but at times it can feel like a 3 class system.


Basicly that's correct. From a rules point of view we ask people choose whether they want to focus on fighting, being sneaky or casting magic. Choose one of those and it opens up a few different classes. After that it's up to you as the player to show why you are a knight rather than a warrior, a mage rather than a celebrant, a scout rather than a thief, a bard rather than a ranger. Sure you get some different stats, access to different abilities and magics but it's down to the individual to roleplay their class. We can come up with loads of rules to try to enforce the differences between classes but I don't think it improves things that much.

From a class balance point of view it is worth mentioning that celebrants (along with mages) are pretty strong and are played an awful lot. Their vows already give them a ton of free stuff so maybe giving them lots of free spells is making them too good. Obviously it depends on the details.


Celebrants only have access to 3 spheres of magic: either Light, Life and Meta or Death, Shadow and Meta (most other classes have access to 6 - meta, 4 elements and 1 absolute). The vow a celebrant gets is usually quite personally affecting and usually has a roleplay restriction: the majority of these spells are for the good of others or to enhance roleplay.
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:11 am

Lets not forget that the majority of vows are also pap
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Luke » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:12 am

I think we probably just disagree on how classes work - which is all part of the wonderful debates on this forum :)

It's funny, I feel like when I started I wanted to be a special snowflake unique-gasm. Now I find myself trying to play the most standard things possible and make them cool with costume. Part of it is my DnD mentality that your class is overwhelmingly what you are and what makes you special.

I wasn't suggesting that vows are imba, but I think that worshipping a God will become so much of a draw.

Mages get lots of circles true, but potentially celebrants would get: 3 circles, all their faith benefits, vows and cele spells... the last free are all potentially free. Oh and a better armour limit with quite similar mods. I love the flavour, and I agree with the justification and even execution I'm just a little bit worried that it could encourage exactly what you wanted to avoid with faith benefits!
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:34 am

Mages get lots of circles true, but potentially celebrants would get: 3 circles, all their faith benefits, vows and cele spells... the last free are all potentially free.


Easy solution - make "Faith" a sphere of magic only available to Celebrants but cheaper than normal magic, as it doesn't offer as much?
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:07 am

Mages get lots of circles true, but potentially celebrants would get: 3 circles, all their faith benefits, vows and cele spells... the last free are all potentially free. Oh and a better armour limit with quite similar mods.


Faith Benefits can be gained by everyone, it's just that celebrants are more likely to gain faith than the average person. Mages can get a greater armour limit at higher levels. Vows all have restrictions and Celebrants can lose faith and indeed all casting abilities. Possibly celebrants tend to get stamped on more by plot?

I dunno...I look at Faith 5 Celebrant and think:
Everything in circle 1is kinda RP stuff. As are Rite, Sacrifice and Sanctuary: we all know it won't stop stuff if refs don't want it to.
Res, Fate, Warrior and Grant Faith will never help the Celebrant tangibly but may help the party.
That leaves Divine Protection and Intervention as what they are actually getting. They're good.

How about we just remove the -1 Celebrants get to magic (change it to 0) so they pay more for magic but get very slightly more? Arch Celebrants could probably stay at -2
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:08 am

+1
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:10 am

On the subject I do feel that both Mages and High Mages should get something: they currently get practically no class features.
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:11 am

I have thought that for a while.

I think we toiled with the idea of High Mages getting more essence or something? Or could buy essence for skill.
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Luke » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:41 am

My comparison was bad. Apologies. What I meant was more that I don't want to feel punished for not worshipping a God. Gods are fun but they are reaaaalllyyy easy role play. It's like a cheat sheet on morales and character builds - I am very very very guilty of this.

So I think adding a 'cost' element to faith spells is a good solution. It's a good trade off. As a caster do you spend your skill on academic stuff, more magic or maybe faith spells. No-one is punished or unduly rewarded for doing any of those, or none of them!

With mages I did really like the idea of some mage only spells. I love the idea of druid/ranger only spells too :P
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:53 am

This is something else I wanted to raise, and something I have been guilty of.

Getting faith is toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy!!!
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:32 pm

I think some refs are guilty of awarding faith too readily (sometimes because players ask for it). I believe it should be a big thing to gain faith.

Threshold limit on Faith to ensure it doesn't happen?
0-30 max faith 2
30-60 max faith 3
60-120 max faith 4
120+ can get to faith 5

Mages/High Mages suggestion
Knowledge is Power
Gains addiontal maximum essence per circle learned equal to the level of the circle.
E.g. a mage with circle 4 Air, Circle 3 Water and Circle 1 Fire would gain 17 addional essence (Air 4+3+2+1, Water 3+2+1, Fire 1).


The idea is that it rewards someone who spends a lot of skill on different elements rather than just get to circle 5 of their specialist element and then spend the rest on dex.

As for Mage/Druid only spells...not sure...I'm wary of adding spells to the system as it means people have to learn more things. With the Celebrant only spells I've removed any that have to be explained in the middle of combat.

Radical suggestion: only Mages/High Mages can cast purely damaging spells (dart, bolt, strike, blast and storm)?
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:40 pm

I think some refs are guilty of awarding faith too readily (sometimes because players ask for it). I believe it should be a big thing to gain faith.


I agree with this

Threshold limit on Faith to ensure it doesn't happen?
0-30 max faith 2
30-60 max faith 3
60-120 max faith 4
120+ can get to faith 5


While this is fine in principle, I don't like that someone low skill could do something utterly massive for their god that deserves more than 2 faith and they get capped by the system. Just doesn't feel very HoP or fair.

Mages/High Mages suggestion
Knowledge is Power
Gains addiontal maximum essence per circle learned equal to the level of the circle.
E.g. a mage with circle 4 Air, Circle 3 Water and Circle 1 Fire would gain 17 addional essence (Air 4+3+2+1, Water 3+2+1, Fire 1).


The idea is that it rewards someone who spends a lot of skill on different elements rather than just get to circle 5 of their specialist element and then spend the rest on dex.


I like this

Radical suggestion: only Mages/High Mages can cast purely damaging spells (dart, bolt, strike, blast and storm)?


ewwwwwww
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:45 pm

While this is fine in principle, I don't like that someone low skill could do something utterly massive for their god that deserves more than 2 faith and they get capped by the system. Just doesn't feel very HoP or fair.


Fair enough. I guess it depends on whether people consider faith as recognition of their RP in which case a ref can accomplish this by saying "if you were higher level you would have gained faith, keep up the good work" (or something less patronising). If people want to increase faith in order to gain more powerful abilities then that's the perfect reason to cap it.

ewwwwwww


Fair.
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Re: Faith spells

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:02 pm

Fair enough. I guess it depends on whether people consider faith as recognition of their RP in which case a ref can accomplish this by saying "if you were higher level you would have gained faith, keep up the good work" (or something less patronising). If people want to increase faith in order to gain more powerful abilities then that's the perfect reason to cap it.


A guideline system is fine and, for me, it isn't about whether people are gaining power or not. The thing the bothers me are the extreme scenarios, the times when Billy the Celebrant of BoomBoom, the Dead one spends his whole saga, as a 10 skill character, taking steps to resurrect his dead god. He has to be perfect all week, in how he interacts with the party, his sacrifice, his roleplay and is finally successful.

I think his god would like to make him High Priest or Paladin but can't because, after receiving his saga skill, he is only 80 skill and thus not eligible for faith 5.

Guideline system for accumulating faith is fine but doesn't need to be a hard rule :)
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