Arch Celebrants and High Mages

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Huw
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Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Huw » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:01 pm

Kind of taken from the Faith Spells thread...

I might have missed some class features out...feel free to mention it. Have deliberately left out Spell Capacities, hopefully they won't exist for much longer.


So, playing an Arch Celebrant:

The upsides:
Best modifiers for buying magic and academic skills (-2)
+1 soul vs domination
(Potentially) can earn Faith Spells (pending approval)
Can buy vows

The Downsides:
Magic is tied to faith - needs at least faith 1 in principle deity to cast any magic
Armour limit of 1
Can't buy Force or Battle Abilities
Unfavourable modifiers for buying skills like Hits, Dex and Damage Grades



Compare this to being a High Mage:

The Upsides:
Best modifiers for buying magic and academic skills (-2)
Largest influence list (everything except Life and Death)

The Downsides:
Armour limit of 1
Can't buy Force or Battle Abilities
Unfavourable modifiers for buying skills like Hits, Dex and Damage Grades






So, it seems like on balance it's always better to be an Arch Celebrant than a High Mage. There are just more benefits to the class for a very similar list of downsides.
Suggestions for making High Mages more appealing/stand out?



Some from another thread:

High Mages get more essence. Suggestions:

High Mages get more essence per mark up.


Knowledge is Power
Gains addiontal maximum essence per circle learned equal to the level of the circle.
E.g. a mage with circle 4 Air, Circle 3 Water and Circle 1 Fire would gain 17 addional essence (Air 4+3+2+1, Water 3+2+1, Fire 1).


I don't like the the "bonus essence on every mark up" to the number of times they go to events, and some of us live on the other side of country...
A "Every 10 skill they get a 1 bonus essence" would acheive the same thing, and be more linked to the quality of roleplay at events, rather than sheer number of events attended.


High Mages have a completely full influence list; can buy anything their alignment permits.


Other ideas on a postcard...
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Azael Bannon, Telefret High Mage
Fox, Shaman of the Tsimshian

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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Will » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:21 pm

Yeah, extra essence doesn't seem the solution...

Letting them cast life and death doesn't really feel right either.

+ 1 DR to elemental magic seems to fit :) Especially if faith spells stay celebrant only.
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Rebecca » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:23 pm

Huw wrote:I don't like the the "bonus essence on every mark up" to the number of times they go to events, and some of us live on the other side of country...
A "Every 10 skill they get a 1 bonus essence" would acheive the same thing, and be more linked to the quality of roleplay at events, rather than sheer number of events attended.


seems slightly like a moot point, given that you'd need to play events to get skill and buy circles/get extra essence anyway. And every 10 skill means that a 120 skill high mage would have, on average 132 essence... that extra 12 essence probably isn't going to make all that much of a difference (and that's if we're charitably discussing the higher end of the system: i.e 30 skill = +3 essence, 60 skill = +6 essence). The 1 bonus essence per mark up would mean that a 120 skill high mage would on average have 144-150 essence... so approximately 20-25% instead of 10% more essence, and starting to make a difference in terms of being able to use maybe a couple more of the bigger spells one has at any given level.
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Rebecca » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:23 pm

<3 the extra DR to elemental
Uukumanu - ranger and spirit seeker
Tuvstarr - Black Queen of Pharon Glos
Imliss - High Elven researcher in Blood Magic
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Huw
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Huw » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:03 pm

Extra essence seems really appropriate for High Mages to me. The point of the class is buying magic, which always costs essence to use. To knock back a monster, empower an ally, cast a bolt or dart - all costs essence. Whereas a tank or scout can get into a fight and in theory use no essence while going "quad, quad, quad".

One bonus essence every ten skill is easier to implement and run than essence per event. What if I play a Saga or weekend event - do I get just 1 bonus essence for attending that? How many day events is that equivalent to? I could work that out - but if it's just tied to my skill level, then I don't need to.

If you made it one bonus essence every 5 skill, it would be more powerful:
30 skill = 36 essence
60 skill = 72 essence
etc.
Ancálimon y Festaer y Helyanwe, Alchemist
Azael Bannon, Telefret High Mage
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Stevie » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:08 pm

Blah blah blah usual spiel

Blah blah I like things the way they are

Blah blah I would actually say I think the expanded influence list for a H Mage kinda has this balance thingy covered

Blah blah sort out Celebrants 1st (They are weak as shit.. and I have one.. so I want it not to be shit, so fix the system so I can be OP pls.)

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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Huw » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:12 pm

Go to the Faith Spells thread for celebrants.

Otherwise if you're not interested, don't post or read...
Ancálimon y Festaer y Helyanwe, Alchemist
Azael Bannon, Telefret High Mage
Fox, Shaman of the Tsimshian

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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Ben » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:34 pm

Get rid of "Mage" and "Arch Celebrant" as classes. We're left with Celebrant and High Mage.

Guess this is going to be an unpopular idea.
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Stevie » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:44 pm

Huw wrote:Go to the Faith Spells thread for celebrants.

Otherwise if you're not interested, don't post or read...


Well I did both, am interested, and had a point that differed from yours. The fact is that I feel the balance is kinda ok where it is. I feel there is enough of a power balance between the two classes, and as for role play distinctions it doens't often come into it, because your roleplay can be completely seperate from your class should you wish it, but nevertheless I feel the inclusion of a required God/optional vows often sets Celebrants apart.

My inclusion of "blah" was merely weak satire on my part, as I'm a little tired of the "Mages aren't powerful" enough threads.

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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Phil.Priest » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:51 pm

Huw wrote:

So, playing an Arch Celebrant:

The upsides:
Best modifiers for buying magic and academic skills (-2)
+1 soul vs domination - Nope That would be Hopeslayers...
(Potentially) can earn Faith Spells (pending approval)
Can buy vows
Gains 1 free Vow

The Downsides:
Magic is tied to faith - needs at least faith 1 in principle deity to cast any magic
Armour limit of 1
Can't buy Force or Battle Abilities
Unfavourable modifiers for buying skills like Hits, Dex and Damage Grades



Compare this to being a High Mage:

The Upsides:
Best modifiers for buying magic and academic skills (-2)
Largest influence list (everything except Life and Death)

The Downsides:
Armour limit of 1 [2]
Can't buy Force or Battle Abilities
Unfavourable modifiers for buying skills like Hits, Dex and Damage Grades



If anything, I's say that the intro of Arch-Celebrant is the issue. its a high mage, with a few extra quirks/hooks.

Every system has the same argument "Quad vs Mana". It really breaks down to:
Quad: Resilience, IN YOUR FACE, hit stuff all day
Mana: Versatility

Don't like squishy mage? enhance it... m/c warrior or find other routes (uniques)


I really dont think anyone has ever tried, and I mean properly tried, to gain more essence. Whilst specialist used to give a casting reduction (and thus was basically an increase in power) other than Will's favourite ex-house mate I cant think of anyone that had a unique of "Can spend X skill for X essence".

Theres a very VERY small number of scrolls used in the system - an excellent method for power users to save essence, especially on the situational or high ranking spells (comms, teleport etc)

Couple of unique ideas off the top of my head:
"I'm an Earth Elven High Mage, can therefore cast an earth spell equal to 1 tenth of my skill for no essence every X minutes" - so at 30 skill its a free rank 3 spell every X.

"I'm a Glass Cannon: cannot cast defensive spells, but my offensive spells are reduced by the rank of this skill"

"I'm a telerfret high mage, I gain my racial essence per threshold instead of once ever"

"Concentrated Meditation: gain an hour of med in a short duration of med (5 - 15 mins), but can't med for 2 hours"

"Quintessential Spell Caster Supreme: counts as one threshold higher for all purposes of magery. e.g. can buy C6 at 60 skill instead of 120. Med costs 3 to enter and regains 3 essence per influx at 60 skill."


But to be honest, if you think High Mages are rubbish - try a druid.
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Will » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:12 pm

Droods rule

Srsly though, I do think that Arch Celebrant has an edge on High Mage, mostly due to vows, so something nice for High Mage would be cool. I don't think essence is it, cause a) that's boring b) at high end, not that useful.

Saying that... might be more relevant with something being discussed away from your prying eyes ;)

Druids get potentially more armour and the grove, but yeah, they could do with something else...
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Stevie » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:33 pm

Animal Aspects?

Talismans?

Something along those lines.

Like vows but with animals.

Aspect of the Bear: Thick Hide - Your outer layer of Fur has +(1/2/3/4 Dependent on threshold) extra hits

Aspect of the Tiger: Savage Blows - Your first/second blow in combat deals +2/+1 damage, must be out of combat for 2 minutes for this to reset. (I.E You normally call quad, you charge in, 6, Quin, Quad, Quad Quad)

Aspect of the Owl: Piercing Vision - Gains "Acute Vision" (Do we have that as a ability?) can pierce through most stealth effects. (Not sure on this one.. breaks the fun a lot of players have with stealthy characters..)

Aspect of the Shrew: Swift Feet - When running away from battle gains +4/8/12/16 Dex for the next 15 seconds (This dex is only active whilst actively running away from battle, and will only reset after 2 minutes out of combat)


Kinda Hi-jacked thread, but yeah.. Druids get this now pls.

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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Will » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:35 pm

Hmm, that's really cool....

Ben?
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Will » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:36 pm

Might want some more castery ones though ;)
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Re: Arch Celebrants and High Mages

Postby Ben » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:42 pm

But to be honest, if you think High Mages are rubbish - try a druid


Druids can heal and repair: one of few classes who can do that. They can also buy Regen: only caster class that can do that.

Animal aspects, could be cool: gain 1 per threshold? Will play with the names/abilities a bit though.
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