Armour Questions and Suggestions

The place to talk about the rules of the system and to get any help with the making of characters etc.

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Alexander
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Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Alexander » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:37 pm

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Last edited by Alexander on Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Will » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:13 pm

Oh wow, I feel the keen :-)

Need to get to a PC, oh wait, got my laptop down in the dungeon, sec
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:26 pm

Why can't we stab


Most weapons we use aren't designed to stab safely: they can a) hurt and b) break.

On the subject of armour properties...it's a game so has to have rules. 6 hits with a sword won't destroy plate but it does in game. We allow realism to slip to make the game work (lightning bolts from fingers as Will points out elsewhere).

As for knights/samurai and what they used? We are not set in any particular period of history, we are a fantasy setting and there's a certain look we want from (some) classes whether they were actually like that or not.
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Will » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:36 pm

First of all, what would gambesons and quilted jacks count as? They can stop the swing of a sword and bodkin arrows and are vital to anyone wearing mail because they cushion the blow. Although they catch bodkin arrows, needle bodkins can go through and bladed arrows can cut through. You can stab through it too of course.


One or two points usually. Again, try not to apply things too closely to the real world, there needs to be a fair amount of flexibility to help make sure things work in game.

I don't know what sudded leather is. If it is just leather with studs in it like shown on page two of http://www.heartofpargonlarp.co.uk/uplo ... _V6.0_.pdf then it wouldn't offer the slightest protection bar the small chance that a blade hits a stud and turns and so the blade is in a bad position. I looked up studded leather and it turns out that studded leather was never used because it's apparently useless putting random studs in it. The idea was from when people looked at depictions of brigandine armour or a coat of plates (which ranges from being stronger than scale to being about as strong as lamelar) and saw the rivets on the surface that were used to attach the metal plated beneath. Not knowing that they were actually looking at iron/steel plate armour, they thought "There are studs in that jacket. The studs must give it strength." but they were mistaken. I'm not sure if that's what you mean but it would be quite odd. If you mean lots of little plates sewn to a backing really close to each other like what the japanese had then yeah, that makes sense.


Again, needs flexibility in game. There is also the matter of OOC cost to bear in mind. We can't really expect everyone to buy totally authentic armour, costing thousands of pounds. That's why we reward people who do put effort into awesome costume by letting them have mastercrafted armour for having bought or made cool armour. This gives it extra strength and hits. So rather than penalise people for not having authentic armour, we reward them. Positive incentive rather than negative :)

"Scale mail" as strong as "chain": my research of armour incorporating both mail and scale found only one such example, some roman armour likely of a rich high-command man which was a coat of mail with a scale on each ring. Or if it just means "scale armour" then that's odd because it was significantly stronger than mail. It was more expensive but far worth it. And what of leather, paper, bronze, iron and steel scales? Leather through to steel scales could stop arrows, crossbows could penetrate iron scales but not paper scales, steel scales were very strong but you would still feel the blunt force through any scale armour. I am suggestiong taking material into account when gauging armour because steel is stronger than leather.


See above :) We also use aluminium and resin armour to represent. We call these physical representations. They are not meant to be exact, but enough that we can believe. So, we don't have full weight metal weapons for example, and use physical representations in the form of foam and latex weapons.

I'm also wondering where brigandine, coat of plates, plated mail, lamellar, and the full plate harness fit here (also boiled leather plate was amazing). It's quite a borad spectrum. Be brigandine counted in the same group as scale armour? If so that's odd because it's much stronger than mail. If not that's strange because they are so similar. It's also much weaker to blunt force than the broad plate armour. Then there's material. Longbowmen pierced the iron armour of the french knights at twenty yards, but when lombard mercenaries charged at them with their tempered steel armour they were immune to the arrows. I'm talking about around 140lb of drawweight. Then there is triplex armour, or three separate plates of steel making up the breastplate capable of stopping every single handheld weapon in the whole world at the time. I am wondering, three layers of plate in this add up to +15 hits but what if they are authentically riveted together in a way that makes it stronger than if they were loose? Can they still count as three please?
Also I've made myself some metal plate armour (Yay master crafted) and am wondering; it's not made of steel, iron, or bronze unfortunately, it's made of aluminium. I know it's not as strong as iron, and much more expensive, but does it still cound as metal for the plate armour requirement?


So, when you stack armour of the same type (leather/chain/plate) you lose one point of effectiveness each time. So, two layers of studded leather would actually be 5, not 6.

Aluminium is fine to physically represent armour. I tried a week long event as a Knight wearing full steel chain once. It didn't end well.

Master crafted Mail grants the first damage resistance against bludgeoning hits: But mail offers absolutely no protection against blunt force. That's it's greatest weakness. :?:


Again, system balance rather than reality.

Master crafted plate noesn't grants the first damage resistance to bludgeoning: One of the biggest advantages over things like mail and scale of plate armour is it's resistance to blunt force. :?:


Balance

It says that knights may not wear leather as their primary armour but may wear it underneath mail, but that is a severe overestimation of the armour of knights. In about the period when the british were fighting the french with longbows most knights wore leather and horn, but the really really rich knights wore iron. And I belive it was worn above the mail. Leather was huge in medieval times.


This is the world of Velmaneth, not planet Earth :)

Never using ranged weapons or daggers? Practically every knight carried a dagger for taking prisoners or just finishing the concussed enemy off, or in their wrestles, and even used guns. Really knights used to murder merchants crossing their land and take their stuff, but I like the distorted victorian view of honourable knights in this game. It just seems nice to think of knights actually being chivalrous.


Fantasy world :) We wanted Knights to be known as wonderful pillars of virtue and honour :)

Samurai only use swords: Samurai were mainly horse archers. When they fought in close range they used mainly spears and glaives, (possibly also six-foot axes and knobbed clubs) with swords and daggers as backup weapons.


Faaaaaaaaantasy :)

Also... Sorry if absolutely everyone asks this question but I just haff to: Why casn't we stab?


The weapons we use are foam with carbon fibre cores. If you stab there's a not unreasonable chance of the core coming out the top, damaging the weapon and potentially real world hurting the person you're attacking

Looking forward to the game, it's going to be really fun :D


It really is :)
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Peter Levy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:59 pm

apologies if answers seem a bit too terse, but here goes an attempt as resolving all of these questions:

DeinFelder wrote:First of all, what would gambesons and quilted jacks count as?

One. One point of armour.

I don't know what studded leather is.

Hard leather armour with bits of metal on. A few rivets is not studded leather, but lots of smaller metal plates/studs/knobs would qualify.
for example, Darkblade make some lovely things like this: http://www.darkbladeuk.co.uk/ARMOUR/Arms/Heavy-Leather-Plated-Vambrace/p-70-71-143/

"Scale mail" as strong as "chain"

For the purposes of our rules, yes. Armchair Armouries make lamellar stuff like this, which would count as Scale: http://www.armchair-armoury.co.uk/graphics/LAMELA%20Russovic%20Armour.jpg

I'm also wondering where brigandine, coat of plates, plated mail, lamellar, and the full plate harness fit here

brigandine, coat of plates, lammellar count as Scale.
Full plate harness counts as Plate.
(not sure what plated mail is...)

I am wondering, three layers of plate in this add up to +15 hits but what if they are authentically riveted together in a way that makes it stronger than if they were loose? Can they still count as three please?

I guess so, would have to see the phys rep.

Also I've made myself some metal plate armour (Yay master crafted) and am wondering; it's not made of steel, iron, or bronze unfortunately, it's made of aluminium. I know it's not as strong as iron, and much more expensive, but does it still cound as metal for the plate armour requirement?

Firstly, AWESOME!
And, yes that would count as Plate. We count Norton Armouries fake-plate as Plate, and that's a little lighter than aluminium (and also less genueinely protective, I reckon.)

Master crafted Mail grants the first damage resistance against bludgeoning hits: But mail offers absolutely no protection against blunt force. That's it's greatest weakness. :?:
Master crafted plate noesn't grants the first damage resistance to bludgeoning: One of the biggest advantages over things like mail and scale of plate armour is it's resistance to blunt force. :?:

Frankly, I'd just make them both grant the first DR to physical...

I think this simplification of armour is too simplified myself, being somone very interested in armour.

I think our armour rules are too complicated (see above), being someone interested in ease and flow of play. Rules can sometimes get in the way of having fun. (Although, they also make a lot of fun too. We need rules.)

There's more... :wink:

Come at me, bro.

It says that knights may not wear leather as their primary armour but may wear it underneath mail, but that is a severe overestimation of the armour of knights. In about the period when the british were fighting the french with longbows most knights wore leather and horn, but the really really rich knights wore iron. And I belive it was worn above the mail. Leather was huge in medieval times.

Size of cowhides notwithstanding, this comes down to what I suspect is the root of all answers to these questions:
Heart of Pargon is a fantasy game. A lot of what we do is very much inspired by history, but exists in an utterly separate reality. Hell, magic exists, so anything we know about physics might as well be ignored...

Never using ranged weapons or daggers? Practically every knight carried a dagger for taking prisoners or just finishing the concussed enemy off, or in their wrestles, and even used guns. Really knights used to murder merchants crossing their land and take their stuff, but I like the distorted victorian view of honourable knights in this game. It just seems nice to think of knights actually being chivalrous.

To continue the 'this is not historical' defence: in Heart of Pargon, knights are chivalrous, and abide by their code of honour. It's what defines them. I agree that it's nice to think of knights actually being chivalrous.

Samurai only use swords: Samurai were mainly horse archers. When they fought in close range they used mainly spears and glaives, (possibly also six-foot axes and knobbed clubs) with swords and daggers as backup weapons.

Fantasy, not history. We don't use the word Samurai, I guess because it carries such specific real-world historical/cultural baggage. (not that knight doesn't, but i can live with all manner of hypocrisy)

Cor blimey that's a long letter.

I've had longer. (that's what she said...)

The word Mail is from a latin word meaning the mesh of a net because Maille looks like a net. Mail does not mean armour, it means Mail. Vikings no horny helmets.

Nice to know!

Why casn't we stab?

See Ben's response.

Looking forward to the game, it's going to be really fun :D

Looking forward to roleplaying with you! It is indeed going to be really fun!


edit: Will's apparently replied at the same time as me. I'm not not posting... damn you, Power.
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:05 pm

Frankly, I'd just make them both grant the first DR to physical...


This

Also:
Personalised: Immune to destruction effects but only when used by the person it was made for.
MC: can be used by anyone. Is immune to destruction effects AND grants the DR to physical.
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Will » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:54 pm

I replied almost 20 mins before you! Learn to type faster
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:58 pm

And I replied 10 before you...
"And unconscious people always count as willing"

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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Will » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:05 pm

Yeah, but mine was more expansive :)
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Luke » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 am

References?

Also chainmail did still offer fair protection against blunt damage, sure if you got hit with as mace you'd have bruises, maybe a cracked bone but you wouldn't be as likely to straight-up die. If anything chainmail was completely useless against piercing weapons. With the creation of the bow, and especially the recurve bow during the crusades, chainmail became less and less of a protection. Plate mail however was excellent at turning arrow heads from weaker bows. Which was later countered by the crossbow.

We have rules to explain all of these physical interactions. Keeping HoP simple is one of the core initiatives because it makes the game flow very quickly and gives the whole thing a serious, but accessible feel.
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Alexander » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:12 pm

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Last edited by Alexander on Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:25 am, edited 10 times in total.
“Fiore... of the noble house of dei Liberi of Premariacco... in his youth wanted to learn how to fight and the art of combat in the barriers. Of Spear, Axe, Sword and Dagger, and of fighting on foot or mounted, armoured or not armoured."

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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:19 pm

And for coat of plates not counting as plate , but only as strong as mere mail, please, take a look at this fine (coat of) plate armour and tell me with a straight face it's no better than mail. http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/wisby_cop/


:| It's no better than mail :|
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Will » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:34 pm

Oh gods...

Historians unite...
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:42 pm

tbh this doesn't come up very often as very few people wear plate but if someone has something that is particularly good, we make exceptions to the numbers in the rulebook. When you're talking about whether something counts as plate or chain, you're only talking about 1 point of armour.

Perhaps we could add a caveat that if the armour is particularly heavy/thick/protective then we may grant up to an additonal 50% or something?

Norton or Aluminium plate would grant standard 6 but if you're wearing real steel plate it could grant up to +9
Aluminium or butchers chain grants 5 armour, heavy chain up to 8

I'm very happy to give people benefits if they are willing to suffer!
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Re: Armour Questions and Suggestions

Postby Alexander » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:10 pm

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Last edited by Alexander on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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