Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

The place to talk about the rules of the system and to get any help with the making of characters etc.

Moderators: Ref, Senior Refs

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Stevie » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:23 pm

I was just doing a bit of leisurely reading regarding Max Damage for Septembers event and because I haven't really played a low skill martial character in quite a while and I needed to see how the system operates.

In short, I know it's a little complicated to get your head around initially.. that's not my main issue with it, as you can work out what it means for you eventually. My issue with it is the impact it has on the very low skill martial characters between 10-29 skill.

AMD for 1 Handed/Thrown between that level is double. It doesn't move beyond that until 30 skill. I think that it cripples melee characters for the first 30 skill, before starting its expotential gain into reasonable AMD territories.

For Instance
- A Mistborn/Giant Animal Warrior will start off calling Double with his 1 Handed Club of Brainsmashing, due to their race. Therefore for the next 30 skill there is NO POINT WHATSOEVER in him purchasing Wpn Proficiencies (and generally strength [But Stevie! He could still grapple.. SMD. Fuck grappling. Fuck you.])

Did you know, Wpn Profs and Str make up 8/11 available skills he could buy between 10-29 skill, yes he could buy abilities but with between 10-29 essence he won't get a lot of milage out of them.

- A Goblin Scout will start off calling double when attacking from behind with his Shivs of Spleensticking (which as a Goblin Scout, he'll probably do a lot). He also has little incentive to purchase any damage grades.



Anyway, in my opinion AMD of double in 1 Handed is too low for 10-29 skill. I would either increase it for a quick fix or look to change the system of Max Damage

In particular, if we were tidying up Max Damage I would

- Scrap AMD entirely. You would still have a max damage, and the only things that can exceed that are temporary/situational increases (This would cover all Spells/Backstabs/Stances) [It could potentially exceed to items, seeing as though they are now also capped {which stops 10 Skill Scout with +5 Daggers of Non-Consensual Sex all over your face fucking up your day.
- Your Max Damage would still correspond to the first chart, but would include your classes Martial/Stealth modifier when using that weapon.

1 Handed Weapons/Thrown
10 - 29 skill = Single Warrior would be Triple with Martial Weapons. Scout would be Triple with Stealth Weapons (A net gain of +1 for Combat geared characters)
30 - 59 skill = Double Warrior would be Quad with Martial Weapons. Scout would be Quad with Stealth Weapons (The Limit of Quad previously introduced by AMD remains)
60 - 119 skill = Triple Warrior would be Quin with Martial Weapons. Scout would be Quin with Stealth Weapons (A net loss of -1 for Combat geared characters)
120 - 299 skill = Quad Warrior would be Six with Martial Weapons. Scout would be Six with Stealth Weapons (A net loss of -2 for Combat geared characters)
300 + = Quin Warrior would be Seven with Martial Weapons. Scout would be Seven with Stealth Weapons (A net loss of -3 for Combat geared characters)


The impact remains the same over the other weapon types regarding the max damage. It's a little less harsh initially and doesn't exponentially rise quite as fast. The removal of AMD means that other factors can come into play at the high end to exceed the harsher limit, which means the change to the higher end of the system, shouldn't actually be seen at all.

TL;DR - The way I suggested to me at least, is less complicated and less harsh on starting characters whilst still providing a framework to cap damage.

WORST CASE SCENARIO TIME
Mistborn Warrior 10 Skill
Base Damage = Single
With Racial = Double
With 2 Handed = Quad
+1 Handed Weapon = Quin
+1 Enchanctment = Six

This is an absolute worst case scenario which I'm sure someone will bring up.

It is for 5 minutes +2 Damage Grades above what is currently available using the current rules.
For the rest of the time it's +1 on what is acheivable today, and that's assuming a considerable Rava investment that the character wouldn't likely have.

That is the worst case scenario. The same as before+1 except 4 Essence every 5 minutes or about 200 Rava.

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:35 pm

Let's take the above scenario and take it to the extreme. Let's take Ashout as an example under the above change (without any uniques)

Scout M/C Assassin with C5 magic (Paladin) - 400+ skill

Base max damage with 1 handed weapon - 7 (depends how you determine maximum damage after multiclassing)

+4 knives (easily obtainable at that level, I only have +3 but +4 can be done)

+5 class based backstab (1 per threshold)

+1 racial backstab (goblin)

+1 cumulative backstab (faith)

+1 damage grade (other source)

+5 elemental damage power up

+1 frenzy stance (paladin)

That's 18 at all times and 25 if I power up, without anything else I can do and inside the scope of the standard system.

Is that the approach we really want to pursue?

Sure, the low end of the system is low damage but that also means monsters are doing low damage. If you scale the low end you have to scale the high end and that is much more open to powerful things happening.
............................................................................Image

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:44 pm

BTW Mist Born get +1 Strength not +1 Damage Grade. They still need the prof.
............................................................................Image

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Stevie » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm

At 400 Skill I don't have an issue with that. You are a high damage burst assassin. I would be worried if you didn't do that kind of damage.

The high end of the system can still be scaled to cater for that. Just because a high end assassin calls 25 is no reason for the Monsters to do so, it's right that you should blow up squishy mages at the high end.

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:15 pm

Right but as the system is now, there is basically one exception to the rules for damage and everything else falls in line.

Tanks do circa 6-8.

2 handers do 8-14

Monsters are stated accordingly.

If people have no upper ceiling then you can get, say, 1 or 2 people per party who do obscene damage and the rest who are doing things "normally". The monsters have to have hits upstated tremendously to factor in what the 1 or 2 can do, which adds strain on the other 8-10 people.
............................................................................Image

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Stevie » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:03 pm

Counter Example = Projectiles have no maximum damage cap at all.. so standardly with things as they are you could buy all damage grades and call something stupid like 50.

I don't know, I feel there's a particular trade off. If being of equal skill, someone who has focused primarily on damage will of course be lacking in other areas.




Anyway, I was intending to just open a discussion. I still feel that the system in itself penalises the low level too strictly.

Perhaps having an Absolute Max Damage Per Threshold that isn't necessarily linked to weapons, or a Game System Max Damage of like 12 or something.

So like 10-29 = QUAD AMD REGARDLESS OF WEAPON/BUFFS ETC
30-59 = SEVEN
60-119 = TEN
120 = THIRTEEN (Unlucky for some)

Or just YOU CANNOT CALL ABOVE THIRTEEN, BECAUSE FUCK YOU.

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:17 pm

Stevie wrote:Counter Example = Projectiles have no maximum damage cap at all.. so standardly with things as they are you could buy all damage grades and call something stupid like 50.


1: spiraling skill investment per damage grade
2: 1 shot every 3-4 seconds, requiring skill to hit, is less damage than a 2h doing 13 by blow.

Something might be wrong but no top end limit involved certainly doesn't fell like the solution
............................................................................Image

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Stevie » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:19 pm

Yeah, the Projectile was just a jest really. I started to do an Ashout 400 skill respec but then cba.

"Something might be wrong but no top end limit involved certainly doesn't fell like the solution"


Yeah, that's how I'm seeing this now. One of the other examples, like a system limit might be in order.

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Stevie » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:29 pm

Like my main issue was the distinction between some weapons.

Whilst I appreciate someone swinging a weighty two-hander might be able to do some serious damage (quad), I didn't like the fact that with a pair of daggers I would be limited to just double until 30 skill, regardless of the fact I'm getting up close and personal to a target and selecting a focused point of damage.

Again, it's some of the IRL vs System balance argument, but for god sake I want to do more than double with my daggers!

On a less personal biased approach (Ever notice why these rules discussions come to fruitition? If I was playing a High-Mage we'd get another High Mages need buffs threads ;P) I do feel like the system could be widened in the lower end. It's not like in other examples where Andy is doing 999 and I'm sat doing double, because people are there doing Quad, it's just that their weapon choice is different.


Image

User avatar
Ben
More posts than Nikki
Posts: 6999
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:33 pm

Under 29: 1 hand weapon can do double, 2 handed weapon can do quad.

Person with a weapon in each hand calling double has the same DPS as someone with a two handed sword (assuming you could swing a 2 handed sword as fast as someone can swing a one handed sword/dagger).

Also, you're only at 10-29 for...what... adventures?

I would happily see a removal of AMD (because it's not "absolute" as some things already go over it) as long as we looked at things to stop silliness (e.g. being able to take advantage of a maximum of +1 weapon enhancement per threshold)
"And unconscious people always count as willing"

Tome of Magic 6.0

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Stevie » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:47 pm

It's partially the play-style of using two daggers. There's less of a risk associated with using a two-handed weapon then by using 2 daggers.

The rogue/assassin archetype at low lvls is hindered by the fact it can't get in, put out *more* damage than other classes (as is usually the norm, it's part the balance of the class being squishy and unable to duel for long periods of time [As opposed to say, sword and board warrior]) and get out again.

I think the maximum of double in 1Hand (At low threshold) works for the Sword and Board Warrior, it's more damage than the base peasant, yet reflects the fact they're typically armored well and have a shield in the other hand. It just means that the overflow of that limit into the Rogue play-style hinders it (in a way I feel it shouldn't), and ultimately makes it weak and unattractive at lower levels.

User avatar
Ben
More posts than Nikki
Posts: 6999
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Max Damage and AMD [A Discussion]

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:55 pm

I dunno...two swords (or one sword and one dagger) v a two handed sword, use one to parry the big sword then move in close enough to kill.

Two daggers have the benefit of being able to fight faster than a longsword or a two handed sword (although the rules say one blow per second, we do pull people up if they are fighting too fast with swords whereas we don't with daggers as long as its no faster than one blow per second).

Currently a scout can get in and do 8 points of damage in 1 second (two x double then a second later two more doubles) and no complaints from us about doing proper blows because they're daggers.

A sub 30 character being able to get in and do (say) triple/triple then a second later triple/triple then get out is 12 damage in 1 second which seems a lot.
"And unconscious people always count as willing"

Tome of Magic 6.0


Return to “HoP Rules”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest