Rules Update: Faith and Churches

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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:35 pm

Sounds good.

Faith spells...I don't know. Add to magic tome under life/death seems easiest
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Luke » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:55 pm

Stevie wrote:For characters with Faith in "Custom" Gods, or at least Gods outside the common pantheon. Should we look to choose two domains that fit with the ethos and have those permanently marked against the character?


Run it past uniques team. But as the domain abilities are short duration I can't see them "breaking the game".
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Luke » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:57 pm

I don't remember what the faith spells are... If one of them resurrects then I would say bin it?

I think the only way to resurrect should be paying the major cost (skill, essence etc). Or the favour ability.
But That's just my personal opinion.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Dellam » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:25 pm

There no faith spells for ressurection, beyond the ability to open ritual circles to do so, the skill costs must still be paid and such. Fates the really major thing out of faith spells I think. Beyond that its mostly things like Prayer, Lay to Rest, holy Warrior.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:17 pm

Fate's already in CIrcle 6 Life so wouldn't be added.

I'd also go through and remove any others that weren't applicable any more.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:21 pm

Ok my turn :)

Firstly, excellent job. I really like the concept and think you could be on to something. Well, you definitely are because current faith benefits are broken. I'm sure my perception of it maybe doesn't match the "mission statement" in places but these are just provisional ideas/questions.

I'm viewing this document as the new, definitive guide to faith. You wanna know about the faith rules, you come here.

1: Faith - add a section on faith. What is faith? How do you get it? (actions which could earn you faith, examples per faith rank) What are you capped at? (4, 5 if Paladin/High Priest)

2: High Priest/Paladin - define the rules for Paladins/High Priests once and for all, in a document, so we don't have to go trawling through the forums every time :)

3: Gaining favour - Give examples on acts which could deserve gaining favour. I feel the description doesn't specify that gaining it is based on faith related roleplay and it should be imo.

4: God abilities - I feel all gods should get 1 defining faith ability. Even if this is just a faith 5 thing. I don't like that every god lost their uniqueness (especially the evil gods). While I don't want these rules to be a "stat" game, I like the flavour of every god getting something that's unique (e.g. Dakron gains a faith benefit of +1 cumulative backstab for 2 minutes" or similar)

5: Non-faith - Sooooooo, with all these cool new abilities why would you not follow a god? Please don't respond with "because roleplay". Yes, some people/most people (?) will pick things for roleplay reasons but I don't feel you should be statistically hindering yourself at any point. Maybe we could add a "Faithless" section and they gain "Faith" in themselves, like a faithful would gain faith. Then gain a set of "Faithless" abilities, much like Life or Death has a set of abilities.
E.G. 1 - Gains +1 Strength, Hit Per and Dex for 2 minutes
2 - Gains -1 cost to casting spells and abilities for 2 minutes
Etc

6: Dakron - why is Dakron the only god that gets 1 sphere?

7: Nefferkeffin - feel his spheres need defining. Something like "Pick 2 spheres at the start of the day and inform a ref" or "Pick 1 sphere and the ref will pick another"

8: Risk - should be like Nefferkeffin but roll a dice to determine spheres or something.

9: Celebrants - quoting Peoples of Velmaneth "Influence List: Life, Death, Light, Shadow, Meta. This may be altered depending on certain deities." this implies that your spheres of influence can change based on which god you follow. I think that, where relevant, you should either
A: add the spheres of influence next to the god
or
B: add a custom vow next to each god (which can be their first vow and thus free) which changes their spheres of influence to XYZ. E.G "Vow of Gerethanax. Cost 2 skill. Adds Earth to the Celebrants sphere of influence"

10: Celebrant spells - it's been covered by other people. Don't put them back in. Leave Fate where it is. If people want them, let them apply for them as uniques :)

11: Custom gods - don't add them. Imo custom gods are unestablished gods that don't have enough power drawn from their followers to be able to influence the real world. Once a god is established and can perform such acts, add it to the document. Until such a point, it is just a roleplay hook for the character following said god.
Last edited by Hatsuo1980 on Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:31 pm

1, 2, 3 fair enough.

4. In 5 years it's been so difficult to get any consensus on updating faith abilities. I don't mind every faith having a unique ability per se, just that it's a hard job coming up with something unique for every faith. I'd favour individual uniques rather than faith granted ones. Perhaps encourage people to request uniques for their position (paladin/high priest) rather than themselves. You pay to create it but can lose it if you lose the position. Quayle did this: Punish the Opressor is owned by High Priest of Danahil rather than Quayle.

5. Yeah...has always been the case though. Atheism as a stat, can "no effect" something religious once per day.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:35 pm

Ben wrote:4. In 5 years it's been so difficult to get any consensus on updating faith abilities. I don't mind every faith having a unique ability per se, just that it's a hard job coming up with something unique for every faith. I'd favour individual uniques rather than faith granted ones. Perhaps encourage people to request uniques for their position (paladin/high priest) rather than themselves. You pay to create it but can lose it if you lose the position. Quayle did this: Punish the Opressor is owned by High Priest of Danahil rather than Quayle.


It's your choice but, I think, if you wanted something for each faith I could happily put things together and talk them through with Luke on facebook and get it done.

Ben wrote:5. Yeah...has always been the case though. Atheism as a stat, can "no effect" something religious once per day.


Just because something has always been the case doesn't mean you can't fix it. Gerethanax and Eremines faith 4 benefits have always been ridiculously strong, that's no longer the case. So, while redoing the whole system, why not throw in a bit of extra thought into faithless?
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:41 pm

The specific benefits:

Life
1 – For the duration Heal and Hope spells you cast work at double effect. If you do not have Heal 1 and Hope 1 you gain these spells for the duration.
2 – For the duration you may snapcast any life spells at the costs stated in the snapcast rules. If you already possess 'snapcast life' then you may snapcast life spells without the extra costs.
3 – For the duration you may mass-cast any life spells at three times their base essence cost. You must still obey the rules for casting times.
4 – After 30 seconds of calling upon the Divine you may 'Banish' an undead, demon or other appropriate creature by touching them. The target disappears for 10 minutes, and then returns in the same place they were banished from. When used against weaker creatures the monster may just die at the referee's discretion. This ability has an instant duration.
5 – With an appropriate ritual you may resurrect a companion. This does not require a sacrifice of skill, soul or essence as usual. This ability costs 6 favour, and must all come from one person.

Death
1 – For the duration you gain the Child of Death special rule.
2 – You gain the knowledge of the best way to kill a target. This ability has an instant duration.
3 – For the duration a target you can see takes +1 damage from all sources. Announce to the target they are ''marked for death''.
4 – For the duration any creature (player or monster) that dies or is destroyed within 40ft of you, grants you 2 essence.
5 – You may bring yourself back from the dead. If you die you may resurrect yourself. 30 minutes after your death you return to life in the same state you left it, but with 1 hit to every location. This ability costs 6 favour.


I don't like this. Life is very much the "make life casters super life casters as life is all things that life magic is" where deaths flavour is "this is the concept of death, get some janky stuff". I think they should be opposites of one another.

As such, I'd leave Life as is and change death to

"Death
1 – For the duration Cause Wound and Despair spells you cast work at double effect. If you do not have Cause Wound 1 and Despair 1 you gain these spells for the duration.
2 – For the duration you may snapcast any death spells at the costs stated in the snapcast rules. If you already possess 'snapcast death' then you may snapcast death spells without the extra costs.
3 – For the duration you may mass-cast any death spells at three times their base essence cost. You must still obey the rules for casting times.
4 – For the duration any creature (player or monster) that dies or is destroyed within 40ft of you, grants you 2 essence.
5 – You may bring yourself back from the dead. If you die you may resurrect yourself. 30 minutes after your death you return to life in the same state you left it, but with 1 hit to every location. This ability costs 6 favour."

It's only really a minor difference but i prefer the thematic idea of the constant struggle between life and death, that they are polar opposites, etc.

Battle
1 – For the duration you may gain an ability from the Battle list. You must still pay all costs associated with the use of that ability.
2 – For the duration you gain the use of a Warrior Stance. You must pay the cost of entering the stance. You may use this ability to stack Cautious and Reckless.
3 – For the duration Battle abilities cost 0 essence. All casting times or power up times still apply.
4 – For the duration you may imbue one weapon with a damage type. The damage type can be an element(s), gravenail, bless or rift (ask a ref if you want to use a non-standard damage type like Pureshard, Bane or Savage).
5 – For the duration all allied players equipment becomes master crafted. Your equipment instead becomes Truesteel.


Abilities 1-4 are great. I think that, in practice, ability 5 could be both difficult to make people aware of and a bit immersion breaking (people have to work out what Master Crafted does for all of their equipment, etc). Also, is giving everyone MC stuff as a Paladin even that good? Surely, you are 120 skill at least by then. It certainly isn't as good as res :P

Honestly, and I might get some hate here, I'd give them "Gains 1 stacking DR and DRs can reduce damage from damage = threshold to 0" bad wording, will tidy up but you know what I mean. 5 times per day (at 300 skill) can reduce quin to 0 for 2 minutes does not feel busted.

Neutrality
1 – For the duration gain neutrality (race). As per the rules for neutrality to element.
2 – For the duration a target you can see reduces its damage by 1. Announce to the target they are ''Neutralised'.
3 – For the duration you become immune to all damage from monsters. This immunity lasts while you take no actions to help or hinder any side of a dispute (at refs discretion).
4 – For the duration you become immune to any supernatural effect which would force you to attack someone.
5 – For the duration you create a 10 foot radius aura within which no fighting can take place. No offensive magic can be cast and no offensive magic can penetrate. Arrows and similar will simply bounce off this area. Everyone within the area feels calm and serene and possesses no desire to be aggressive in any way towards anyone.


3, and probably 2, are considerably more powerful than 4. I'd more 3 to 4, 2 to 3 and 4 to 2.

Destruction
1 – For the duration any weapon blows or spells you cast cause knockback.
2 – You gain the knowledge of the best way to destroy a target.
3 – For the duration all spells or weapon blows deal additional damage. Weapons deal +1 damage, dart becomes bolt, bolt becomes strike, strike becomes blast.
4 – You may cast any destruction spell by expending essence equal to the spells rank. This ability has an instant duration.
5 – You may 'annihilate' an item by touching it. If the item is not destroyed then do not expend favour. This ability costs 5 favour and has an instant duration.


2 feels much better after Death got changed (as the effect isn't duplicated). Should this be "instant" so you can't check targets for 2 minutes?

3 this feels good but doesn't cover every spell? With damage reductions no longer reducing to 0 could we just blanket change this to "For the duration weapon blows do +1 damage. Damaging spells additionally do a dart of that element. E.g. flaming apparition does a fear, a fire bolt and a fire dart. The player would call "Flaming Apparition Fire Dart" or something?

Does 4 have a cast time? If not, write it as "May cast any destruction spell as an ability by expending essence equal to the spells rank". Can this be used on Circle 6 destruction spells? (Disintegrate limb)

Let 5 be used on players. Vs a limb = disintegrate. Vs a crit = location to zero? All my faith for a day for 1 loc to zero doesn't seem busted.

Protection
1 – For the duration gain 1 stacking DR to all damage while fighting to protect another person. The person must be within 10 ft of you.
2 – For the duration you may cast the Rockskin 1 and Shield of Elements 4 regardless of whether you may cast magic. If you know these spells already you may cast them at 1 rank higher, if you cast Rockskin 5 it becomes Rockskin 6, Shield of the Elements 20 becomes Shield of the Elements 24.
3 – For the duration all armour worn by you and any of your allies grants an additional hit. This can apply to multiple suits of armour worn by the same person.
4 – You may take a killing blow for an ally within 10ft of you. This ability has an instant duration and is used retroactively.
5 – For the duration you select one ally. You and that ally gain all DRs and immunities the other has while within 10ft of each other. These stack so that if your ally has EDR and you have DR, you will both have 3DRs.


1 = good. 2 = good though, maybe, let people cast them as an ability? 4 = good.

3 might be hard to get working IC. Not sure, need to think about this one a bit more.

5 is a bit like 3 but probably better as it is only 1 person. Would need to see this one in action probably.

Magic
1 – You immediately gain 10 essence. This ability has an instant duration.
2 – You may deny a spell cast within 40ft of you without spending essence. This ability has an instant duration and is retroactive.
3 - For the duration all spells you cast cost 1 less essence. This cannot be used to reduce a spell to 0 essence.
4 – For the duration you gain the knowledge of any spell you choose. You may cast the spell by spending essence equal to its rank as usual.
5 – You gain the effects of Invigorate, Reflect (threshold), Shield of Magic (threshold x 4), Rift weapon, Contingency Shield of Magic (Threshold x 4). These spells are cast instantly and do not stack with spells of the same name. This ability costs 3 favour. When using this ability you must announce ''Magic is mine''.


Ability 1 feels very strong, in comparison to how med has been reduced. 2 per threshold maybe? Dunno, not that bothered.

Ability 5 feels like a "power up mage warrior" which I'm not sure is the point? The Invigorate certainly feels out of place. The rift weapon slightly out of place, but less so. Not sure if I care to much but something just feels a little flavour fail.

Freedom
1 – When a time freeze is called you may choose to move 7 steps. This ability has an instant duration.
2 – For the duration you may choose to move freely, even if dominated (you must still obey a command to fight, but can walk wherever you like).
3 – You may cross a ward or line without taking any detrimental effects. This ability has an instant duration.
4 – For the duration you become immune to anything that would stop you moving (stopping effects, domination, etc.).
5 – You may snapcast mass teleport without spending essence. When you do call the names of the people you want to teleport with you, they must be within 40ft but there is no need to be touching them. The named people teleport with you to the last safe place you were. This ability costs 1 favour +1 favour for each 2 people you name.


All seems fine to me :) I'd change the teleport to 1 favour per 3. That way you can roughly get a whole party "safe and away". Would seem real dickish for a god to say "My Paladin, you can bring your 10 mates with you but mate 11, 12 and 13 I don't like so no"

Good
1 – For the duration you may use divine power to turn the unclean. By calling upon your deity you repel evil doers. You may choose to expend additional favour on this ability, each point increasing the power of the ability potentially destroying your enemies.
2 – For the duration you gain 1 stacking DR verses evil sources.
3 – For the duration any heal or hope spells cast upon you are twice as effective.
4 - For the duration your max and current soul increases by 1 for each Goodly character within 40ft of you.
5 – You can prove to all present, beyond any doubt, that the target (which can be you) is a ‘good’ person with the best intentions for good (assuming it is true). This ability has an instant duration.


The faith 5 ability? Am I missing something or does it basically do nothing useful? Give them Summon Angel or Embody Angel or something cool

"5 - Embody Angel. Gains magic only hits, immunity to death magic, immunity to shadow magic. Is bathed in a bright white light that fears all evil in a 10ft radius. Costs 2 favour"

[Evil
1 – For the duration you may use divine power to disgust the pure. By calling upon your deity you repel good doers. You may choose to expend additional favour on this ability, each point increasing the power of the ability potentially destroying your enemies.
2 – For the duration you gain 1 stacking DR verses good sources.
3 – For the duration any self or touch spells which affect you cost half the base essence.
4 – When someone uses an information effect or spell to discover something about you, you may deceive the answer. This ability has an instant duration.
5 – When you receive payment for a job you gain bonus 10% rava payment. This ability can stack with itself.


3 - That you cast? Otherwise someone (cough Chee cough) will use that and get someone to cast shield of shadows 20 on him for 10 essence.

5 - like Good. Change this to Embody Demon or Undead or Abashi or something.

Renewal/Creation
1 – For the duration you may inspect an item and instantly gain the effect of item lore, sense power, reveal magic, and you can inspect the item without harmful effects.
2 – You can weaken an item to remove a curse/blessing from it until sunrise. You may choose to remove an aspect of a magic item. This is at referees discretion. This ability has an instant duration.
3 – For the duration a touched object becomes immune to all destruction effects (including annihilation).
4 – You may instantly repair every object, set of armour and weapon of allies within 40ft of you. This ability has an instant duration.
5 – With an appropriate ritual you may repair or restore any object, even if annihilated. This ability costs 5 favour and has an instant duration.


Seems fine. Faith 5 sounds weak but, with the right applications, is actually pretty strong (dem depowered god items)
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:09 am

Just because something has always been the case doesn't mean you can't fix it. Gerethanax and Eremines faith 4 benefits have always been ridiculously strong, that's no longer the case. So, while redoing the whole system, why not throw in a bit of extra thought into faithless?


Not saying it can't be fixed, I just don't see it as a problem. I guess it only comes to mind if you're trying to be efficient with a character build and milking every point and every benefit you can.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:13 am

6. was fixed immediately after posting

7 and 8, sure thing.

9. Discussed elsewhere: vow seems a way forward.

10. I think some of them have a place and could make the Tome of Magic.

11. Create a god if you want...put enough effort in and if it grabs our attention then it gets stuff.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:21 am

Ben wrote:
Just because something has always been the case doesn't mean you can't fix it. Gerethanax and Eremines faith 4 benefits have always been ridiculously strong, that's no longer the case. So, while redoing the whole system, why not throw in a bit of extra thought into faithless?


Not saying it can't be fixed, I just don't see it as a problem. I guess it only comes to mind if you're trying to be efficient with a character build and milking every point and every benefit you can.


Fair enough. It's your call.
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:23 am

Ben wrote:6. was fixed immediately after posting

7 and 8, sure thing.


Cool

Ben wrote:9. Discussed elsewhere: vow seems a way forward.


This makes Wills life more annoying too as its about 20 more skills to add to the online system :D

Ben wrote:10. I think some of them have a place and could make the Tome of Magic.


Haven't seen them in a while, could well be the case I guess

Ben wrote:11. Create a god if you want...put enough effort in and if it grabs our attention then it gets stuff.


Exactly :)
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Luke » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:25 am

Will review the above and make changes. Not ignoring this!
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Re: Rules Update: Faith and Churches

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:17 am

What if Paladins and High Priests were just a title (it didn't give you XYZ) but gave you access to something unique to your faith.

Maybe things like:

Larweyella:

Paladin - whenever goes into combat gains: Reckless (stacks with stance) and locations work to -4.

High Priest - may cast “Enrage” (the fire spell) as an ability. This is powered by Larweyella and thus is rift in origin. This is not a domination ability.

Dakron:

Paladin – gains +1 cumulative Backstab and backstab now last the first 2 blows of combat with each hand
Or
Gains +1 cumulative backstab and when striking with backstab gains essence strike for free on those blows (may choose the element)

High Priest – may deceive any information effect/spell/sense targeting the High Priest. This costs 1 essence per use. Gains immunity to Lore skills.

Risk

Paladin – roll a dice. Gain that Paladins benefit.

High Priest – roll a dice. Gain that High Priests benefit.
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