Armour hits

The place to talk about the rules of the system and to get any help with the making of characters etc.

Moderators: Ref, Senior Refs

xochiquetzal
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm
Location: Great Torrington, Devon

Armour hits

Postby xochiquetzal » Tue May 12, 2015 6:13 pm

I think I may have been playing HoP completely wrong when it comes to armour...

I assumed that armour permanently increased your location hits by the amount that armour protects (until you take it off), so when I wear my leather I add +3 hits (because the armour is made of two separate meshes of leather, so two layers of leather = +3) to my torso. In my head, I thought that those extra hits were permanent, and armour was only destroyed by shatter/disintegrate effects. Now, actually having read the rulebook properly (shocking, I know! :P) it seems that I have been playing wrong, and after the no. of hits given by armour have been dealt to it then it is destroyed.

Is that right, or is my understanding incorrect? Because if I have +3 armour and take 3 singles and then my armour is gone, then armour is a bit shit. What is the point of wearing, for example, chainmail if it weighs you down, restricts your movement, and then after 5 hits it's gone? I could understand it if when you are hit by a weapon that deals more damage than your armour can protect it is destroyed (so if I wear +3 armour and take a quad the armour is destroyed, but if I take a double I just lose 2 location hits).

My understanding was this: I have around 10 base location hits (after invigorate and a large unity circle), wearing my leather armour gives me +3 hits. When those 3 hits are gone they can be healed normally by magic, as if my base hits had just been increased by wearing armour. My armour gets destroyed by disintegrate before I get hit at all, and my base location hits go down to 10 again (unless I fix the armour).

Now I think it is actually this: The same as before, but after taking 3 hits my location hits are gone (as they were before), but they cannot be healed, the armour has to be fixed first.

So what I am asking is this - which of the above scenarios is correct, and have I been accidentally cheating all this time?
Maximus - Jehovern Celebrant
Toshak - Light Elf Bard

User avatar
Peter Levy
Posts: 1011
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Peter Levy » Tue May 12, 2015 6:20 pm

the second scenario is correct.

armour hits are (generally) taken first. Once they are gone, the armour is destroyed and must be repaired to regain the armour hits.


(i prefer the other way... i think it makes a bit more sense: the armour isn't damaged all that much by being hit. bt wearing it makes you more resilient, so you gain the hits to your body. this is how it works at empire, and i like it.)
Señor Ref

xochiquetzal
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm
Location: Great Torrington, Devon

Re: Armour hits

Postby xochiquetzal » Tue May 12, 2015 9:00 pm

Well, that makes armour really terrible. If it breaks after the hits are gone, what is the point in wearing it? You could just save the essence spent on repair/reintegrate and spend it on healing instead.

While it makes sense that the armour degrades after being hit many times, it doesn't make sense that the armour is (supposedly) made of butter.

I think this rule needs to be changed.
Maximus - Jehovern Celebrant
Toshak - Light Elf Bard

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Armour hits

Postby Stevie » Wed May 13, 2015 8:53 am

The advantage of armour is that it doesn't cost you skill. At lower levels of the system it allows you to mitigate damage that would've been impossible before. I.E - a 10 skill warrior can't buy 6 extra hits (he simply doesn't have enough skill) but he can wear plate armour and have those there to protect him (until they degrade).

It's the protection from upfront burst damage where armour helps most. Yes, your 6 hits from your plate will degrade but you can stay active in a fight for much longer as a result.

At the higher end of the system with shields/unity etc armour becomes less effective but at the end of the day it is still free hits and dependent on the armour you wear and the amounts of hits it provides (through MC/Crafting upgrades) the Repair vs Heal Essence Efficiency skews towards repair being more efficient at high levels of armour.

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed May 13, 2015 9:10 am

xochiquetzal wrote:Well, that makes armour really terrible. If it breaks after the hits are gone, what is the point in wearing it? You could just save the essence spent on repair/reintegrate and spend it on healing instead.


It's about ratios.

1 plate mail chest piece may cover your upper arms, upper legs and chest. This would provide 5/6 (I forget which) armour hits to those locations. If they all get used up, that piece of armour has absorbed 15 points of damage.

The repair spell restores all hits a single piece of armour provides. So, in the above case, 1 essence would "heal" 15 points of damage. That's far more efficient than life magic.
............................................................................Image

User avatar
Ben
More posts than Nikki
Posts: 6999
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Ben » Wed May 13, 2015 11:18 am

It used to work the way Andy says but has been like this for a couple of years after a number of people wanted Repair nerfed as it was too powerful.

Repair
Rank: 2
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
This spell may restore the pieces of any damaged/broken object back into its original form providing that there is a sufficient amount of the original item. This spell has no effect on objects destroyed by the Disintegrate spell.
In the case of armour this repairs one layer of armour to one location.


It's a 2 point spell to restore 1 to 6 (usually) hits.
Life magic allows a 2 point spell to restore 3 hits but isn't location dependent.
Specialism takes both down to 1 essence of course.
"And unconscious people always count as willing"

Tome of Magic 6.0

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed May 13, 2015 11:29 am

Ben wrote:It used to work the way Andy says but has been like this for a couple of years after a number of people wanted Repair nerfed as it was too powerful.

Repair
Rank: 2
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
This spell may restore the pieces of any damaged/broken object back into its original form providing that there is a sufficient amount of the original item. This spell has no effect on objects destroyed by the Disintegrate spell.
In the case of armour this repairs one layer of armour to one location.


It's a 2 point spell to restore 1 to 6 (usually) hits.
Life magic allows a 2 point spell to restore 3 hits but isn't location dependent.
Specialism takes both down to 1 essence of course.


Shows how much I pay attention to changes :D

Dang, repairs much worse than it used to be.
............................................................................Image

User avatar
Peter Levy
Posts: 1011
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Peter Levy » Wed May 13, 2015 11:38 am

so, i'll put my little opinion here:

i think healing is waaaaaaaaay too strong.

unless we significantly reduce the number of hits available.
Señor Ref

xochiquetzal
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm
Location: Great Torrington, Devon

Re: Armour hits

Postby xochiquetzal » Wed May 13, 2015 8:38 pm

Well, that went off-topic quickly!

But anyway, having read what Ben and Andy have said, these are my thoughts:

Every adventure I have been on, there have been people with rediculously large essence pools. That isn't the system's fault, or the players', it's just because they have been using their character longer. However, what does irritate me a bit is how at higher skill (at the moment) meditate becomes even more powerful. If you have more essence, you also get to regen it faster. Not only does this make large essence pools really strong, but it also means that lower-level casters feel even weaker as a result (they have less to begin with, and regen it really slowly). I think a way to solve this would be to nerf meditate so that it stays at a constant rate of regen, meaning powerful casters get their essence back slower (proportionally) to balance out their large starting pool, and weaker casters can get their essence back faster (proportionally) so they can actually be useful.

I don't think healing magic should be made more expensive (I am perhaps a tad biased!), because it is so very useful. Other spells, maybe, but I don't think they should be increased in cost too much.

Armour being as weak as butter has now been explained to me, but still doesn't make a lot of sense. I think it should be broken by shatter/disintegrate as it normally is, and maybe have its own health equal to its ARx3(?), and ARx4 for MC/personalised. Armour would still get damaged/broken, but it wouldn't be broken in a matter of a handful of hits. That means armour is still worth wearing even when you are a high skill character. In this instance, it would be something like this:

Derek the warrior is wearing chainmail, which gives him 5 points of armour. The armour is also mastercrafted, meaning it has 5x4=20 hits. When Derek takes a quin his hits go down by 5, removing the bonus he got from armour. Then he is healed by 5 points, and is back to normal. This goes on for a while, until Derek's chainmail has taken a total of 20 hits. Then, the chainmail breaks, and has to be repaired. Derek's maximum hits goes down by 5. Until the armour is repaired, he can only be healed
to his new max health. Effectively, armour provides a fortify health effect, instead of a shield effect.


Also, I don't think we should change the amount of essence people receive based on class/race. It just makes things overly-complex, and means that your class/race has a much more significant effect on your character, instead of being a basic framework to work around.


Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subjects.
Maximus - Jehovern Celebrant
Toshak - Light Elf Bard

User avatar
Ben
More posts than Nikki
Posts: 6999
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Ben » Thu May 14, 2015 12:41 am

We do try to have limits on adventures so that very high level characters aren't always around but yeah, agreed, when they are adventures feel easy or lower guys can feel pointless.

I think you may have been a bit spoilt by playing with much higher level people: Unity and unlimited healing isn't usually available to lower level characters, hopefully you can play on some max 30/60 adventures to experience that end of the system more.

I have played a few characters at high level and never felt armour was pointless or weak. An extra 5 hits granted by chainmail is useful even to a high level character: 5 lots of Extra Location is going to cost a warrior with a -3 modifier 20 skill. The next rank will cost another 7 skill, then 8, 9 etc. Or you put on some chain and studded leather and use the 44 skill for something else. I would say it's not unreasonable for a warrior to wear leather, studded leather, chain and plate for an extra 15 hits: that would cost 135 skill if you bought extra location hits.

Sure, all of that is gone in a couple of hits but then it gets repaired (giving support casters something to do) and you're good to go again. Armour is amazing: it gives hits that you don't have to pay for in IC money or skill and the hits are restored just as efficiently but using a different power base (Water instead of Life).

Say I get hit for a quin. I can regen that (assuming I'm out of combat that will cost 5 essence, 10 in combat, 15 if it's knocked me unconscious). I could supreme dodge it (6 essence). An Orc could take it to essence (10 essence). I could be healed (2 essence by a specialist, 3 by a normal life caster). Or if I'm wearing armour I could get it repaired for 1-2 essence. I'm also not in pain, bleeding, rolling around on the floor in agony with my guts hanging out because people really should be roleplaying injuries.

Instead of thinking of armour as weak, think more that bodies in HoP are ridiculously strong: a blow with a sword to an unarmoured torso is probably enough to kill yet in HoP a peasant with an axe doing single has to hit a prone starting character 9 times to actually kill him.
"And unconscious people always count as willing"

Tome of Magic 6.0

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Armour hits

Postby Stevie » Thu May 14, 2015 11:30 am

As a personal note, while we've started to move away from armour. I would prefer if spell-casting was a little longer. I don't like that for one essence spells people can just get away with saying "Whirlwind" or "Heal" or w/e.

I would maybe go with, spell-casting takes at least 3 seconds (for rank 1 spells) each additional rank takes 2 seconds to cast.

It turns "Heal" into "Powers of life, knit these wounds. Heal" or "Whirlwind" into "Breeze blow, find your foe. Whirlwind"

It ticks all the boxes, move immersive, reduces essence spam.

Hatsuo1980
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Location: Calne, Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Armour hits

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu May 14, 2015 12:04 pm

Stevie wrote:As a personal note, while we've started to move away from armour. I would prefer if spell-casting was a little longer. I don't like that for one essence spells people can just get away with saying "Whirlwind" or "Heal" or w/e.

I would maybe go with, spell-casting takes at least 3 seconds (for rank 1 spells) each additional rank takes 2 seconds to cast.

It turns "Heal" into "Powers of life, knit these wounds. Heal" or "Whirlwind" into "Breeze blow, find your foe. Whirlwind"

It ticks all the boxes, move immersive, reduces essence spam.


Always felt the 0 casting time thing was unimmersive and lazy so agree with this.
............................................................................Image

Luke
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Armour hits

Postby Luke » Thu May 14, 2015 1:02 pm

"Armour is bad"
"Healing is too good"
????
Nerf Essence


WHAT?!

I think Armour is fine. With the addition of Damage Resistances, armour does scale into the late game. I've played a tank for a good while and I think armour is essential. It doesn't need changing, at all, in my opinion.

Healing is a different issue, playing a 'Healer' can be very frustrating, you spend nearly all your essence picking up players who are being less than sensible. Some people enjoy that, some don't, I love life casters but I'd like to do more than healing. Nerfing healing will just mean that more essence is spent on it, and so there's even less extra stuff life mages can do.

Here's a suggestion that might work, and I've been talking to Jake about it, but I'm sure he can chime in;

We get rid of the "at -8 hits your location is destroyed, or you are dead", when you get to a negative number you are 'dying'. You are conscious, you are bleeding, you can't do anything other than probably scream, or maybe drag yourself somewhere. After a minute of bleeding to a critical location, or if you receive a killing blow, you are dead. Any heal spell will knit your wounds and put you back on 1 hit to the location. Bandaging stabilizes you until you are healed.

What does this do?
1) eliminates the 9 hits-to-kill peasant
2) healing has a very serious time limit
3) makes the whole thing immersive, think of the drama when your buddy is dying and the healer is unconscious and you share your last few moments before he kicks the bucket. YUS!

As for the other stuff, I agree with Stevie on casting times. I don't think essence needs changing, or med for that matter, THOUGH essence shrines is a brilliant idea!
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Jake
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:08 pm

Re: Armour hits

Postby Jake » Thu May 14, 2015 1:29 pm

What Luke said.

Buuut, I think you should only become incapacitated when brought down in a critical location (head, chest). Taking a limb to 0 would render the limb useless and it would begin bleeding, but you can work through the pain to keep fighting. HOWEVER, if you don't get it seen to within two minutes, you bleed out and you die the same as everything else.

I think not only forces more drama and desperation and people to roleplay injuries as opposed to just lying around - but gives semi-plausable reasons for not reacting to blows as much as we probably all should - you fight on until you can't - adrenaline runs out and you see how much pain you're in - commence crying, rocking back and forth and telling mumsy you're coming home.

Also going to endorse essence shrines. Gives something a little exciting for people to try to find each adventure.

User avatar
Stevie
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Armour hits

Postby Stevie » Thu May 14, 2015 3:26 pm

But how do I kill someone?

Do I put them down and slice their neck with a "Coup De Grace?" or do they have effectively a 1 Minute "Last Stand Lie-Down"


Return to “HoP Rules”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests