Meditation Changes (split)

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Luke
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Thu May 21, 2015 11:15 am

I agree with Andy (seriously, what the fuck is going on here?!), going to froth now but it has context.

So on the nightmare event I was healed once as Ten Tigers and that was only because I was hit with Touch of Death. I was about 100 skill so not that high skill a character. Rob and I even had an injoke that I would pretend to be injured so he would come and discern wounds, and then I'd say I'm fine.

To hit any remotely 'power played' (hate that term) character's base location you have to do a whole lot. I will use the above example, well aware that Ten Tigers isn't even close to the 'potential, optimal builds' (hate that even more).

You have to get past forearm/foreleg parry (which I suck at, but still), then 16 globals with a DR to everything, then 3 parry hits, then 1 dex, then 3 pts of armour, then probably Rockskin and Invigorate at the least. Not to mention high soul, and the ability to resist magic. If you do get onto the 5 hits per, then regenerate is a thing.

After 2 minutes most of these come back/are still active.

The changes to Chi definitely help this, it means Ten Tigers sustains 2.5 times slower (which is a good thing).

But nerf healing? Won't change ANYTHING. Receiving constant healing doesn't help Ten Tigers in a fight. And it's rarely even a consideration.
Now times all of this stuff by 10 and you have probably something approaching the munchkin-ness of Andy, Edd or Phil :P I think before we make sweeping changes to core mechanics we really need to think about what we want out of the game, and when we have seen that happen and why.

I actually disagree with Ross slightly, I think healers having less access to essence may be interesting, because at the moment healers (on the whole) are able to restore players to 100% of their hits between or during fights. With less access to essence it may be that healers only heal critical locations and we are going to see a whole lot of people with damaged or unusable limbs. I really like that, it's fun playing a warrior with only a shield arm and 1 leg, because you can still play the game, if anything you are MORE epic than when at 100%.

The issue (for me) comes with this 'deaths means epic' mentality. I think it's a kind of myth. I don't feel that way, for me it makes me wonder why I bother interacting at all when half the party dies over a week, and then it breaks my immersion to see the same person play 8 characters (looking at you Edd ;) ) each one with slightly more botched kit than the last, trying to remember if you already told EddChar4 the plot, or if that was EddChar3...

Why are deaths epic? Because they force some sort of angst? Some interaction of roleplay? Well we do interact, as a club we have come a long way. I don't think we need 'deaths' to roleplay better. Let players choose their own deaths (within reason), yes that may be because that warrior has one leg and one shield arm, and he just can't hold the damn door anymore, but it shouldn't be a case of ''we nerfed their healing, let's rush them with impossible wave after wave of monster to kill players because then they are roleplaying and our event is like dark and high risk an stuff''

PAH I say to you! LAZY I say! ILLOGICAL I cry!



p.s. this really isn't aimed at anyone in particular, so please don't take it that I am criticising peoples ref-styles or opinions, but also I hate you all and I've been a ref for all of 10 minutes so I know how to do things now.

TLDR: Healing is fine/irrelevant, the essence nerf is enough, deaths are dull not epic.
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:30 am

You get more angst from party interaction than death, the Nightmare event is a good example of that.
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Ben
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 11:35 am

Weren't you just suggesting introducing a much harsher death count?

I don't think we need deaths for roleplay etc but I think the fear of death from player failure rather than monster 'success' makes people think more, act more tactically, cautiously, rapidly. People rush when they hear ToD but not when someone is just on the floor.

Where death becomes more important is where the system doesn't really challenge at high levels without being seen as unfair. If more people die in the 100s, this is less of a problem
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:52 am

Ben wrote:Weren't you just suggesting introducing a much harsher death count?


Yeah, from a "system can't cope with the top end of players" perspective not a "it creates better roleplay" perspective
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 11:54 am

I think healers having less access to essence may be interesting, because at the moment healers (on the whole) are able to restore players to 100% of their hits between or during fights. With less access to essence it may be that healers only heal critical locations and we are going to see a whole lot of people with damaged or unusable limbs. I really like that, it's fun playing a warrior with only a shield arm and 1 leg, because you can still play the game, if anything you are MORE epic than when at 100%.


It will be interesting to see the results of the med changes. However, other possible changes to healing (eg increased cost, time to take effect, can only be healed when resting, removing ranged healing) might be interesting for the above.
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Luke
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Thu May 21, 2015 11:57 am

I'm all for drama, and players rushing to help others - hence the shorter death timer where you are able to call for help. And that fits an attrition style.

Like I said we need to decide - as Ross said - if we are attrition or epic. Otherwise the changes we make run in counter. Nerf damage for epic fights, nerf med for attrition... They are ideologically opposed.

I was just saying to Dom today. What makes me fight cool is a lack of consequences, if I can take 2 hits without having to spend anything to get it back then I'm likely to run around pretending I'm a tiger and grappling Sonny. But if we change to attrition I won't do that, because the risk of death or simply the risk of having to 'pay' (essence etc) for being cool means sometimes I will stand at safe distance and fight in a boring but careful way (snore).

This Makes me a bad roleplayer but if it's 2 seconds of cool for £100s kit and investment then fuck it.

I want to be a Tiger guys. I want to occasionally do stupid stuff.

What does everyone else want? Attrition or epic? I really do believe it's that simple a division
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

Luke
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Thu May 21, 2015 11:58 am

Remove healing for a day.
See if it makes it better or if it makes People Fight terribly.
Easy.
Warryn Coshwood - Diamond Elf Paladin of Gerethenax
Ten Tigers - Serkanian Furious Blade
Ishan-bey - Kor Sorcerer

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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:22 pm

Luke wrote:Remove healing for a day.
See if it makes it better or if it makes People Fight terribly.
Easy.


You're reffing the next event.
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Ben
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 1:25 pm

Yeah, from a "system can't cope with the top end of players" perspective not a "it creates better roleplay" perspective


I wouldn't want to increase deaths because it might increase roleplay. People only RP well the deaths of people they care about and it makes it awkward when someone dies who you can't actually remember the name of. Also, it may grant extra RP to those left alive but not for the guy on the floor.

I would suggest that death or, rather, danger: the fear of death makes for a better game. You know that if you all survived you did so because you did well rather than because it was easy or because refs didn't want you to die.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 1:29 pm

Nerf damage for epic fights, nerf med for attrition... They are ideologically opposed.


I want less numbers in the game. Nerf damage, nerf med, nerf healing, increased chance of death. My ideology is sound.
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Peter Levy
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Peter Levy » Thu May 21, 2015 1:47 pm

fewer.
Señor Ref

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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu May 21, 2015 1:58 pm

Ben wrote:I would suggest that death or, rather, danger: the fear of death makes for a better game. You know that if you all survived you did so because you did well rather than because it was easy or because refs didn't want you to die.


This is like
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 2:41 pm

The same amount of numbers, just lower...so less
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Thu May 21, 2015 2:50 pm

Ben wrote:The same amount of numbers, just lower...so less


If people are unconscious or dead more often, wouldn't there be both less and fewer numbers?
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 3:27 pm

Both and neither
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