Meditation Changes (split)

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Luke
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Thu May 21, 2015 8:28 pm

Okay well seems like your mind is made up. I am opposed to nerfing healing. If we had a record I would want that on it ;-)
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Thu May 21, 2015 10:11 pm

You don't know me at all.

My mind is rarely made up and even when it is I rarely act. Then I wait about two years before changing anything unless it's urgently pressing in which case it's one year.

Let's see how this goes :)
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Thu May 21, 2015 11:15 pm

I'm putting a reminder in my phone. In two years time I am going to be so confused.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby xochiquetzal » Fri May 22, 2015 3:09 pm

Here are my thoughts on what has been suggested.

People say that healing is really strong and that nobody ever dies, but that really comes from high-end healers with huge essence pools, not healing itself. My character, being a good guy, heals everybody indiscriminately. This means that I can help people get back all their hits, but I do it so much that I run out of essence within a few hours, due to my smaller essence pool.

Nerfing med seems like a good idea, but I still like the idea of essence shrines allowing you to get it back at a faster rate. That way there is still a way for people to get their essence back, but only if they are willing to risk an extended trip to the essence shrine. Also, to avoid essence batteries, how about this: non-spellcasters cannot regen more than 1 essence every 10 minutes, not even at essence shrines. This reflects how they don't use their essence as much, and so are less in-touch with it.

Repairing armour should not cost essence if you're using physical tools, but make it a bit of a slower process (eg. 30 seconds per point of armour (haven't read the rules for that skill in detail, so I may just be stating what is already in place)).

I prefer the idea of an epic, less attrition-based system. Attrition could be good, but it just means that high-end characters have a much better chance of survival than low-end characters. More epic combat is better, and I don't think players should be brutally punished for the smallest mistake (this isn't Dark Souls, you don't get to recover your skill by revisiting your point of death, you just die), but also if a player is constantly charging recklessly into battle and is generally abusing the fact that things are not meant to be really dangerous, should suffer the consequences. :twisted:
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Fri May 22, 2015 3:18 pm

xochiquetzal wrote:Also, to avoid essence batteries, how about this: non-spellcasters cannot regen more than 1 essence every 10 minutes, not even at essence shrines. This reflects how they don't use their essence as much, and so are less in-touch with it.


Disagree with this massively. Spellcasters don't intrinsically use more power than a non-spellcaster, especially the further up in the system you go. It may be the case up to/maybe slightly highly than 30 skill but that's only down to having less options, imo.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Fri May 22, 2015 3:19 pm

Repairing armour should not cost essence if you're using physical tools, but make it a bit of a slower process (eg. 30 seconds per point of armour (haven't read the rules for that skill in detail, so I may just be stating what is already in place)).


In the latest rules:

Mend Armour [*]

Skill: 5

Description: May mend 3 points of armour every 30 seconds of appropriate role play, with appropriate tools, per rank of this skill.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Sat May 23, 2015 11:28 am

We used to have a 2 tier system where casters had power and no one else did. Essence was introduced in character and granted to all heroes to use in various ways. I don't want to go back to the old days in this way.

I think Share Power only giving half as much would be good: so it costs me 20 essence to give someone 10 but is free to cast Share Power.

But, let's see the result of the med changes first.

Also on attrition v epic: I think rather than trying to make the system one or the other, I believe the the system allows the capability of providing both and the writers of the event can determine which is more likely.

Eg at Saga an all-nighter of low level waves could be described as attrition but this doesn't stop the epic fights such as the revenants (or whatever)
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Sun May 24, 2015 6:01 pm

Ben wrote:Also on attrition v epic: I think rather than trying to make the system one or the other, I believe the the system allows the capability of providing both and the writers of the event can determine which is more likely.

Eg at Saga an all-nighter of low level waves could be described as attrition but this doesn't stop the epic fights such as the revenants (or whatever)


I disagree with this totally. When changes are made they skew the system in favour of one over another. The system may have the capability of both, it can sit somewhere in the middle, it can be at either end of the spectrum, but it can't be both at the same time. (Not without a mechanical overhaul).

So for example, nerfing healing or med, leans the system towards an attrition style, those waves of low level monsters will suit this. When the big battle happens the party wont have as much healing/essence available, they won't spend power on big showy stuff (because they wont have the power in the first place), and even if they did they need to think twice about blowing the essence. One mass teleport might take a player out of the game for days.

HoP can be 'Epic' if everyone starts at full essence, has a big fight, then attrition is the low level waves comes after, but that's a pretty specific scenario. If changes are made to reduce capability of certain classes, no matter how you phrase it, they will be doing less of what they do for less of the time. Epic style relies on people doing what they do, near enough all the time. (Epic is maybe a clunky term here)

Making changes towards an attrition based game (which is effectively what is happening), is fine if it's recognised. But then making competing changes under a different ethos of making the fighter flashier, I think, puts HoP in an uncomfortable middle ground where players are told to fight 'well' and make it 'cool' but they know they will be punished for every point of essence, healing, damage they give or receive.

You might say your ideology is fine but to me it seems confused and if I see it that way I get the feeling others may also. I feel like we need a mission statement of what we are trying to achieve.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 7:59 pm

I just want people to feel that when they've won they won because they deserved it. That they achieved something because of what they did rather than because it was written.

Maybe it's just me who finds it less fun when it doesn't feel like you're challenged.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Sun May 24, 2015 8:24 pm

I DEFINITELY feel that that responsibility lies in the writing of adventures and not on the mechanics of the system. I think we should maybe have some standard kind of monsters/stats, been talking about it for a long time. Just a sort of benchmark really. We already sort of do this;

Wraiths - magic only
Glooms - Rift only, do soul damage
Skeletons - extra damage from bludgeoning

Might be nice to make a sort of monster catalogue, a manual if you will...

That is not to say we can't be flexible.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 8:46 pm

Ben wrote:Also on attrition v epic: I think rather than trying to make the system one or the other, I believe the the system allows the capability of providing both and the writers of the event can determine which is more likely.


Luke disagreeing with Ben wrote:I disagree with this totally


Luke disagreeing with Luke wrote:I DEFINITELY feel that that responsibility lies in the writing of adventures and not on the mechanics of the system.


I wrote this 8 years ago for another system. We could edit it.

Bestiary

Death Knight (Undead)
Paladins who turn away from their deities, oaths and beliefs in life become Black Guards: powerful, evil warriors, hated and feared throughout the realms. When a Black Guard dies he is brought back as a Death Knight, an undead warrior of great skill and power cursed to wander the realms until destroyed. Death Knights are proud and arrogant with an irrational hatred of the forces of good especially the religion they followed as Paladins. Death Knights can be found leading undead armies or alone seeking one on one combat and other ways to test their mettle
Strengths: Well armed and armoured, well trained
Weaknesses: Pride and arrogance

Demon
Demons range in appearance from beautiful and seductive to huge horned monsters to multi-tentacled creatures. The only common factor is that they are all chaotic, destructive and evil and most are immensely strong and difficult to harm. Demons are not native to this plane of existence and although some demons can be harmed with mundane weapons most are immune to everything but magic due to their outsider nature.
Strengths: Physical and magical power, can appear in many different forms
Weaknesses: Religion, magical weapons and spells

Drow
The Drow (or occasionally Dark Elves) are the evil cousins of the other Elven races who dwell deep underground in the realms below known as the underdark although they sometimes journey to the surface (usually for nefarious purposes). Drow society is matriarchal, rigidly divided between nobles and commoners and extremely dangerous. For this reason, Drow who survive into adulthood are highly skilled with all manor of weapons and magic. Cruel and malevolent, Drow are a deadly opponent and one not to be taken lightly.
Strengths: Powerful natural abilities
Weaknesses: Mistrusted, dislike sunlight (prefer to keep to the Underdark)

Dwarf
Ruled by King Farthaine Greatbeard and his queen Gravanna from their mountain stronghold of Grey Towers, Dwarves are rarely seen on the surface these days, probably due to the common appearance of their ancient enemy goblinoids across the realms. Stocky, bearded and under 5’ tall, Dwarves love beer and treasure (making some of the best of both along with the finest arms and armour). Dwarves are also extremely stubborn and hardy, traits which make them resistant to certain mind affecting spells along with poisons and diseases.
Strengths: Strong-willed, hardy, well armed and armoured
Weaknesses: No mages in Dwarven society, anger issues (particularly towards goblinoids)

Duergar
Although almost all Dwarves live underground, only the Duergar live in the deeper darkness of the underdark. Similar in stature to their surface counterparts (though somewhat emaciated), years of living in the underdark has led to their skin has taken on a grey palour. The Duergar people were enslaved by the Illithids for centuries and have developed a resistance as well as a hatred of psionics and other mind affecting magic. Even more surly than the other Dwarves sub-races, they are mistrusted by most surface races and there are open hostilities between them and other Dwarves. While the Duergar and Drow often fight, the two races are regular (if reluctant) trading partners.
Strengths: Can turn invisible, strong, hardy, well armed and armoured
Weaknesses: Mistrusted, dislike sunlight (prefer to keep to the Underdark)

Elf, Air
Air elves are possibly the most powerful of the Elven races, a fact that has led to them becoming arrogant and somewhat insular. Flighty like the wind, Air Elves are extremely chaotic and can change their minds in an instant. Due to their love of magic and power, Air Elves are commonly mages and academics.
Strengths: Powerful natural abilities, immunity to lightning based magic
Weaknesses: Chaotic nature

Elf, Fire
The Fire Elves evolved in mountainous, volcanic regions giving them a somewhat violent and chaotic outlook on life. Fire Elves are extremely rare, so rare that most die without ever meeting another of their own kind and are unpredictable and often unapproachable. They are selfish with magpie-like tendencies towards magic items and have very short tempers.
Strengths: Powerful fire based abilities, resistant to fire damage.
Weaknesses: Mistrusted, vulnerable to cold damage, chaotic nature

Elf, High – Gold
Gold Elves (or Sun Elves) are haughty and arrogant, viewing other Elves as inferior, humans as short-lived barbarians and most other races as little more than animals. For this reason Gold Elves are rarely seen outside the great Elven cities. Gold Elven society revolves around their noble families and the serene exterior of High Elven life hides political intrigue that sees plots run over many centuries. Following a recent civil war led by the most powerful Gold Elven noble house (but supported by others) they are currently trying to keep a low profile.
Strengths: Powerful natural abilities
Weaknesses: Mistrusted

Elf, High – Moon
Moon Elves (or, insultingly, Silver Elves) are the most “human” of the elves, living in family groups within great cities. Although there are as many Moon Elven noble families as there are amongst the Gold Elves, the Moon Elves are more accepting of other races although a perfectionist attitude to whatever they do can make them seem particularly aloof to other races. Moon Elves have forsaken their innate abilities for the study of magic allowing them to choose low level spells to case innately.
Strengths: Able to choose natural abilities
Weaknesses: Less powerful natural abilities

Elf, Water
Possibly the most noble of all the elves, very few Water Elves ever adventure at all, preferring to remain in their underwater cities. Water Elves come in two varieties and while freshwater elves are marbled blue, sea elves are a marbled green or turquoise in colour Although aquatic elves pay homage and respect to the High Elven King, their loyalties truly lie with their own royal family.
Strengths: Unique “Touch Dehydrate” ability, able to breathe underwater
Weaknesses: Extremely lawful

Elf, Wild
Also known as Kagonesti, these Elves never migrated to the great Elven cities and continue to live in tribal groups in the Outlands where tribal loyalty is everything with the quest to gain honour and prestige from/for the tribal group a lifelong task. Considered to be the barbarians of the Elven race, Wild Elves are fierce fighters, as fearless as they are superstitious. Most Wild Elves are scouts or warriors, although a few become shamans (magic users of one kind or another). They wear fur, suede and leather and almost invariably avoid using metal weapons and armour. Human expansion has been eating into their territory for decades and this has led to a gradual decrease in their populations. Current known tribes include: Bear, Wolf, Hawk, Snake and Jade Eye.
Strengths: Physically stronger and tougher than most Elves, able to Pass without Trace
Weaknesses: Eschew use of metal arms and armour

Elf, Winter
Almost as noble as water elves but with a harsher outlook on life, Winter Elves hail from the frozen wastes of the Northlands. Most are hunters, living in a clan-based society led by elders but some become adventurers and travel south in winter, returning north as the weather becomes too warm for them. Winter Elves are very pale with black, white or occasionally even blue hair. Winter Elves have an incredible hatred for the evil Ice Elves, who are exactly like Winter Elves in all but their actions.
Strengths: Powerful cold based abilities, resistant to cold damage.
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to fire damage, can only adventure during winter, extremely lawful

Elf, Wood
It is believed that Wood Elves are the most similar to the original Elven race before it split into all the different sub-races. The elves of the forest, the sylvan folk of ancient legend, Wood Elves are totally at home in woodland and at ease with all the natural creatures within. Wood Elves abhor destruction of nature (in particular ancient woodlands) and can become quite irrational if confronted by such wanton destruction. Intensely loyal to the Elven monarchy, the Wood Elven people provide the majority of Elven rangers.
Strengths: Able to hide effectively in woodland, life abilities
Weaknesses: Eschew use of metal armour

Ghoul (Undead)
Where most undead are corpses reanimated by dark magic, ghouls are created from living creatures in a ritual involving feeding on the flesh of sentient creatures. Once turned, a ghoul loses much of its sentience being reduced to the level of an animal: acting in a pack, constantly trying to sate its hunger for human flesh.
Strengths: Fast moving, claws able to penetrate armour, ability to paralyse and pass on disease to victims.
Weaknesses: Animalistic instincts, blood frenzy: tend to stop fighting to feed on a fallen enemy.

Ghast (Undead)
An advanced form of ghoul, the ghast is created in the same way but still retains some of its intelligence. Where a ghoul will attack frontally in a pack, a ghast usually works independently and will stalk its enemy in order to pick off individuals and stash their corpse to feed upon later.
Strengths: Fast moving, claws able to penetrate armour and poison victims, ability to paralyse and pass on disease to victims. Can move unseen and fight tactically.
Weaknesses: Usually solitary creatures, will try to retreat rather than die.

Githyanki
Githyanki are psionic creatures and the arch-nemeses of Illithids. Githyanki are physically more adept than Illithids and especially proficient with martial weapons but less powerful mentally.
Strengths: Psionic powers, martial prowess, magical arms and armour
Weaknesses: Arrogance, psionic weaknesses particularly against mind flayers

Gnoll
Gnolls resemble bipedal hyenas and although they used to have their own society, they were conquered by the goblinoid horde and now tend to work as scouts in their service. Few free gnolls are ever encountered although there are rumours of independent gnoll packs operating in the outlands.
Strengths: Fast moving and adept in the outlands
Weaknesses: Rare and looked down on as dogs by many other races

Gnome
Where Dwarves are experts with metal arms and armour it is a misnomer that they are particularly skilled with mechanisms, this particular expertise falls to gnomes. Although similar in height to Dwarves, gnomes don’t usually have beards and are less stocky in build. Gnomes are extremely cunning, though can also seem playful and carefree. They are known to be masters of illusion.
Strengths: Technologically skilled
Weaknesses: Diminutive size, physically less adept

Goblin
Small, green and cunning, goblins are reasonably common in the Western Realms. Although usually they are used as scouts by Orcs and Hobgoblins, occasionally they act as the brains of the organisation. Although they can be immature and childish, they can also be malevolent and sadistic. This chaotic and unpredictable nature can make them extremely dangerous opponents.
Strengths: Cunning, clever, large numbers
Weaknesses: Physically weak, often bullied into service by larger goblinoids

Golem
Mystical constructs made from a variety of materials animated by powerful and ancient magics, golems are usually left to guard an important location although some are given other duties to perform for eternity. Golems are rarely given the ability to talk and are almost impossible to stop without destroying them.
Strengths: Dependant on the material they are made of, usually physically strong and resilient to both physical damage and magic.
Weaknesses: Will follow instructions only, usually unable to deal with unexpected situations.

Halfling
“Small, plump borrowers of other people’s things” is one of the nicer descriptions of this diminutive people. There are two different types of halfling (a name derived from the fact they are half the size of humans): Hobbits and Kender. Hobbits tend to be obsessed with food while Kender are more interested in ‘collecting’ treasure and being (playfully) annoying. Used to being overlooked, halflings have developed the ability to blend in with their surroundings and due to their peculiar outlook on life they are immune to fear as their only real worry is that they might run out of food.
Strengths: Resistant to fear, ability to move unseen in any environment
Weaknesses: Small and often annoying

Half-Orc
Hybrids of orcs and humans, half orcs are understandably rare and tend to be outcasts in either society.
Strengths: Very adaptable, physical advantages over humans
Weaknesses: Intellectual disadvantages compared to humans

Hobgoblin
Although at least as strong and tough as Orcs, Hobgoblins tend to rely on their skill and mastery rather than brute force in combat. Although they resemble Orcs in appearance with their ruddy skin and sharp teeth, Hobgoblins can be identified by two horns and long black hair. Although most hobgoblins are warriors, assassins
Strengths: Martial prowess, physical strength and toughness
Weaknesses:

Illithid
Also known as Mind Flayers, Illithids are a race of amphibious hermaphrodites with powerful psionic abilities. Physically weak, mind flayers stand about six feet tall with purple skin that glistens with slime, pupil-less white eyes and four tentacles. These tentacles are adapted for latching onto a victim’s skull and then burrowing into the brain which they can then withdraw and consume, absorbing both nutrition and information. With their powerful psionic abilities, Illithids are greatly feared both on the surface and throughout the underdark.
Strengths: Psionic powers
Weaknesses: Unpredictable and physically weak

Imp
Imps are extremely minor demons, summoned by magic users to perform minor tasks or guard areas. Usually chaotic and unpredictable imps can often hinder more than they help and though they are resilient to mundane weapons they are relatively weak against magic.
Strengths: Resistant to mundane weapons
Weaknesses: Chaotic, weakness to magic

Kobold
Smallest and weakest of the goblinoid species, kobolds are lizard-like creatures used occasionally as scouts by goblinoid forces. Curious and unthreatening, kobolds are almost extinct in the realms and those that are left would probably prefer to be left alone.
Strengths: None
Weaknesses: Everything

Lich (Undead)
Liches are probably the most powerful and dangerous of all undead creatures. Unlike most undead, they are not created but instead a necromancer of great power turns performs a series of dark rituals in order to give himself eternal ‘life’ and create a phylactery (an item of some description intrinsically linked with the lich and which contains a great deal of magical power). These mages appear much as they did in life except in various levels of decay and are extremely powerful magically and are difficult to harm. If a lich is harmed beyond their ability to recover they will disappear and reappear at their phylactery. They can only be ‘killed’ finally if their phylactery is destroyed.
Strengths: Magically powerful, cannot “die” until phylactery is destroyed
Weaknesses: None

Lizardman
Cold-blooded bipedal lizards, Lizardmen once had a civilisation that rivalled humans and elves in the realms. Over the millennia the climate of the realms changed and their natural swampy territory slowly turned into forest and as they migrated south their ancient temples fell into disrepair. Lizardmen are usually skilled warriors or powerful clerics and they are able to emit poisonous chemicals through their skin. In more recent years lizardman activity has been almost unheard of but there have still been a few sightings.
Strengths: Skilled with weapons, poisonous
Weaknesses: Rare

Mummy (Undead)
Mummy’s are the last remnant of an ancient civilisation that once ruled over much of the Western Realms. They are the corpses of important members of this civilisation, organs removed, bodies pickled, wrapped, hardened and sealed in tombs. These tombs are often filled with traps, treasure and magical items and when the seals are broken the Mummy is filled with magical power and given lease to seek revenge on those who disturbed its eternal slumber.
Strengths: Wide range of magical items make their capabilities unpredictable
Weaknesses: Fire

Night Goblin
Similar to goblins in size and stature with dark green skin, night goblins are natural assassins who tend to stick to the shadows. Even more cunning and calculated than other goblins, night goblins are more chaotic in nature but more precise when applying a knife (usually to the back).
Strengths: Blindness, Jump and Invisibility as natural abilities
Weaknesses: Mentally unstable

Ogre
Relatively rare in the Western Realms, ogres are characterised by dark skin and a single horn in the centre of their foreheads. Second only to trolls in size and strength amongst the goblinoid people, ogres are much feared despite their obvious mental deficiencies.
Strengths: Physically strong
Weaknesses: Mentally slow

Orc, Brown
Orcs are the most common and versatile of the goblinoid species with the brown skinned sub-species the most often encountered in the Western Realms. Slightly tougher than most humans they share much in common with the human barbarian tribes with their tribes consisting mainly of barbarians and shamans.
Strengths: Physical advantages over humans
Weaknesses: Intellectual disadvantages compared to humans

Orc, Green
Green skinned orcs were once a common sight in the Outlands and throughout the Western Realms. After a decade-long territorial dispute between them and their brown skinned cousins, most green skinned orcs have either been wiped out of driven out of their ancestral homes. Green skinned orcs tend to be more “human” than other orcs and can be of any class ranging from warriors and scouts to clerics and mages (although paladins and assassins are extremely rare). Some scholars to believe that brown orcs may be “true” orcs with the green-skinned variety somehow crossed with goblins.
Strengths: Very adaptable, minor physical advantages over humans
Weaknesses: Very slight intellectual disadvantages compared to humans

Orc, Black
Black Orcs are the strongest and toughest or all the orcs and are relatively rare in the Western Realms. Most are vicious killers, sharing many traits with ogres and black orc magic users are unheard of.
Strengths: Physical advantages over humans
Weaknesses: Anger management issues

Pine Warrior
Pine warriors are Gaia’s chosen foot-soldiers when she is in her destructive phase. Their features appear to be that of other humanoid races made of wood and though the first generation of pine warriors were created directly by Gaia, other waves seem to be creatures who have been fed a potion known as “Pine Sap”.
Strengths: Numbers, relentless
Weaknesses: Fire

Shadow (Undead)
Where necromancers use the bodies of the dead to create zombies and skeletons, shadows are created by corrupting the soul and then bound into service. Shadows are incorporeal and as such can only be harmed by magical weapons and spells. They can cause no physical harm, can disappear and reappear at will and drain the life from living creatures with their touch. Their intelligence is limited and they appear to be attracted to life like moths to flame.
Strengths: Immune to mundane weaponry, can drain life from victims
Weaknesses: Magic weaponry/offensive spells

Skeleton (Undead)
Animated corpses of long dead warriors, their bones reanimated and held together by necromantic magic, these are the second most common undead creatures an adventurer is likely to face. Skeletons are characterised by quick, jerky movements and can seem unnaturally fast as they are not bound by the physical limitations of sinews and muscles.
Strengths: Simple to create, resistant to sharp/projectile weapons and magic.
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to bludgeoning weapons and shatter spells.

Skeleton, Dry Bones (Undead)
Created from the oldest corpses robbed from ancient tombs and burial sites, Dry Bones Skeletons are much like their basic counterparts but stronger and more resilient to damage.
Strengths: Resistant to sharp/projectile weapons and magic.
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to bludgeoning weapons and shatter spells.

Skeletal Champion (Undead)
Sometimes a necromancer unearths the corpse of a particularly powerful warrior and creates from their corpse a more powerful undead minion. These champions are usually stronger, more resilient and more skilled with weapons and are either left to guard a particular location or ordered to lead squads of lesser undead.
Strengths: Resistant to sharp/projectile weapons and magic, well armed and armoured.
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to bludgeoning weapons and shatter spells.

Troll, Forest
Trolls are a very diverse race who have evolved to suit their environment. Huge and covered in foliage, forest trolls are extremely strong and tough but usually peaceful, only becoming violent when protecting their territory. They rarely work with other goblinoid species, preferring their own company although as natural creatures some are in Gaia’s service. Immune to poison and able to regenerate all wounds except those caused by fire, forest troll can recover from almost any amount of damage.
Strengths: Physically strong, regeneration
Weaknesses: Slow moving, vulnerable to fire

Troll, Stone
Stone Trolls are the strongest and toughest of their species but also slowest mentally. They appear as giant walking rocks and are extremely resistant to almost all magic except shatter spells. Unlike Forest Trolls, Stone Trolls often work with other goblinoids as guards and powerful front line troops. Like other trolls, stone trolls can regenerate all but the most serious of wounds and are all but immune to fire though blunt weapons tend to harm them more.
Strengths: Physically strong , resistant to most magic, regeneration
Weaknesses: Slow moving, vulnerable to shatter spells, blunt weapons

Vampire (Undead)
Vampires are superhumanly fast and strong, able to regenerate injuries by feeding on the blood of sentient creatures. It is in this way that vampirism is spread from creature to creature though it takes three bites from different vampires to convert a living creature. When the third bite is received the victim will either be sucked dry by the vampire and rise up as a vampire within minutes or be left to die slowly and rise a few hours later. Vampires are pale of skin due to taking damage from direct sunlight but otherwise look no different from living creatures. Vampires have an unnatural hatred of religion even amongst undead, shying away from holy symbols and taking severe damage from holy water. Vampires can regenerate the most serious of injuries and the only way to ensure they are dead is to cut off the head or drive a wooden stake through the heart.
Strengths: Strength, speed, regeneration
Weaknesses: Sunlight, religion, stakes

Werewolf
Werewolves are a particularly dangerous opponent as most of the time they appear as normal people. However, during full moon they change into fierce bipedal wolves with sharp claws and teeth. Werewolves (or lycanthropes) are created due to a disease of the blood called lycanthropy which is passed on through bodily fluids, particularly via teeth and claws. Unlike vampires it can take a single bite to turn someone although it is rare for werewolves to leave their victims unharmed. Werewolves must change under the full moon but can turn at other times, especially in stressful situations or when angered or injured. Werewolves can only be killed by silver, magic or fire and can regenerate almost all other wounds.
Strengths: Regeneration, resistant to normal weapons
Weaknesses: Silver, magic, fire

Wight (Undead)
Wights are the least powerful sentient form of undead and they can be either warriors or spellcasters. They appear much as they did in life (though somewhat decayed) and though relatively rare they are occasionally encountered in the Western Realms.
Strengths:
Weaknesses:

Wraith (Undead)
Wraiths are very similar in appearance to Shadows except they are often more defined and carry weapons. These weapons rarely do physical damage but instead are an extension of the arm, used to drain the life from the victim. Wraiths are much more powerful than shadows and take a lot more magical damage to destroy. Also, unlike shadows, they are usually independent, sentient and able to cast a variety of dark magic.
Strengths: Innate spellcasters, immune to mundane weaponry, can drain life from victims
Weaknesses: Magic weaponry/offensive spells

Zombie (Undead)
The animated corpse of the (relatively) recently dead. These are the simplest undead creatures for a necromancer to create, channelling power directly into the body to reanimate it. As such zombies are the most commonly encountered of the walking dead and the easiest to dispel. Although not much of a threat to the experienced adventurer they are completely unemotional, unfatiguable and relentless, following their purpose until they are destroyed. Zombies do not speak but have a tendency to moan and groan.
Strengths: Easy to create in large numbers, immune to mind affecting spells, will keep fighting until effectively destroyed.
Weaknesses: Slow moving, unable to fight tactically, easy to dispel.

Zombie, Musk (Undead)
Although few know how musk zombies are created, those who have come across these creatures are slightly more wary of zombies in the future. Physically these undead creatures appear the same as basic zombies but they share similarities with ghouls. Their usual tactic (if such a word can be applied to these creatures) is to shuffle around, using their resemblance to normal zombies to their advantage. When people come within range they burst into action, moving with superhuman speed, clawing, biting and passing on disease
Strengths: Fast moving, impossible to dispel, will keep fighting until effectively destroyed
Weaknesses: Animalistic instincts
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Tome of Magic 6.0

Luke
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Sun May 24, 2015 9:09 pm

My WHOLE point is to NOT change the core mechanics of the system (without an aim in mind). Let's not score points on contradicting ourselves shall we Ben?

Also those quotes aren't even correlated. I am saying we can't sit at both ends of the attrition/epic scale, the mechanics push it one way or another. The role of writers can pick one sure, but they can't pick both.

Nerfing healing is a mechanics choice, obviously. I am opposed to that specifically.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Sun May 24, 2015 9:17 pm

When I was reffing my little oriental campaign even monster was stated 3 times - once for if the party were finding the day easy, one for if it was average and one for if they were struggling and I or the A-ref would, in theory, tell the monsters which set of stats to use before any given encounter.

As the campaign was set at the same threshold throughout, generic monsters had the same 3 stat sets throughout the campaign. No reason this sort of system couldn't be implented with generic things through every threshold.

E.G. Max 30 skeleton, Max 60 skeleton, Max 120 skeleton.

It's more effort in the first place but saves refs time in the long run.
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xochiquetzal
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby xochiquetzal » Sun May 24, 2015 9:32 pm

I like the idea of some kind of bestiary, and having a set of stats also seems like a nice idea. The refs come up with a set of stats at the start, and can just say 'Monsters, you are being skeletons of power level 1'. Then half-way through the battle a necromancer comes and does some fancy magical shit, and the ref goes 'Power rank 2', and all the monsters know what to increase their stats by.

Also, I think Luke is right, and that at the moment the proposed changes are quite erratic. This may be because most ideas are being taken and tweaked, but they come from different people with different ideas of what should and shouldn't be done. This means the overall flavour of the rules is leaning in two directions at once. Things can only be decided properly if we nail once and for all what HoP should be: epic and overly dramatic fights with plenty of huge swings and powerful spells; or attrition, where the players have to outlast the monsters in a tense bid for survival. If we decide that, then at least the changes people are proposing will be directed in a certain manner.
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Ben
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 9:43 pm

Luke wrote:My WHOLE point is to NOT change the core mechanics of the system (without an aim in mind). Let's not score points on contradicting ourselves shall we Ben?


I didn't think I was. I thought we were agreeing, despite you saying you disagree.

I said:
Also on attrition v epic: I think rather than trying to make the system one or the other, I believe the the system allows the capability of providing both and the writers of the event can determine which is more likely.


You quoted this saying you disagreed but then made what appears to be the same point so let me reiterate.

The system (Heart of Pargon) lends itself pretty well to both epic and attrition and the writer of an event/adventure can choose which end he wants to aim at: waves of low level monsters grinding players down or massive fights to allow them to show how amazing they are. Send in a load of monsters with swords and shields and you tend to get the former, a big bad with a 2 handed axe is probably the latter.

I like that the system can cater to either end of the epic/attrition spectrum and I wouldn't want to make any changes that only allow it to be one or the other. Some players prefer RP, some prefer fighting. Some like puzzles, to be mentally challenged, others to be physically challenged. We try to cater for everyone. Similarly we try to cater for those who want attrition and to those want epic.

As I said, I'm much more interested in changes that make things simpler (less numbers) rather than changes to attrition/epicness because as I said, I think writers can write different encounters/days/nights/whole events to cater to both.

Nerfing healing is a mechanics choice, obviously. I am opposed to that specifically.


That's fair enough, I'm not planning to introduce any changes immediately or, in fact, at all. That's not to say changes won't be made but when someone raises a concern I like to talk about it, hear opinions then watch what actually happens at events. I am currently of the belief that certain parts of healing could be changed to make the system better but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know what is best for the system so I'd want some level of consensus before making any changes. One of my main concerns is that when you have one powerful healer it's no fun to play another healer: this doesn't really happen with any other role.
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