Meditation Changes (split)

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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 9:50 pm

xochiquetzal wrote:Also, I think Luke is right, and that at the moment the proposed changes are quite erratic. This may be because most ideas are being taken and tweaked, but they come from different people with different ideas of what should and shouldn't be done.


If it's a proposed change, I'll call it a proposed change. This comes after ideas, arguments, tweaking etc. Do a search on the word propose/proposed etc and it's pretty rare. Anything else said by me or anyone else is just a "hey guys, I've had this idea, what do you think?" and no matter who it comes from I will treat it with as much respect as if it came from me.

Things can only be decided properly if we nail once and for all what HoP should be: epic and overly dramatic fights with plenty of huge swings and powerful spells; or attrition, where the players have to outlast the monsters in a tense bid for survival. If we decide that, then at least the changes people are proposing will be directed in a certain manner.


We won't get everyone to agree on what the system should be: I want it to have broad appeal and to keep as many people happy as possible and I really want everyone to feel their ideas and suggestions are appreciated. I would much rather we dedicated our time, energy and resources to making changes to a system that can cater for both epic and attrition based on what the writers want to write and what the writers want to write should be based on what the players want to play.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby xochiquetzal » Sun May 24, 2015 10:04 pm

The word proposed may not have come up much, but there have been a lot of ideas that have been put forward. When I said proposed all I meant was ideas that had been put forward.

Although I realise that we can never all agree on what the system should be, the problem lies in that some game mechanics are leaning very much towards one end, and others are leaning very much towards the other. For example, people with very high med rates means that if a ref tries to make things attrition-like, the situation will never be as dangerous as it should be. Personally, I feel that if things are going to be truly balanced, and events (or even individual sequences of events) can be either epic or attrition, the mechanics have to be made much more flexible. They can be changed by the ref to make the situation more epic/attrition. I remember at the anniversary weekend when Sonny was being Pomodionbakasiet he would sometimes just say 'Everyone gain +10 essence!' or 'Everyone gain +5 hits per location!' and that certainy made things epic. If that could be done more often, then the game mechanics wouldn't be changing the type of event.

I hope I made myself at least a bit clear.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 10:19 pm

Ideas are just ideas: what people think could be interesting/cool. I want people to come up with as many as they think are good and post them: some gold will come out of the crap.

The very high med rate isn't a rule, it's a unique and should be looked at if it caused a problem. I don't think these changes are being made because of that: the concerns about too much essence being around have been around for a while. However, the changes are minimal really: at any point, on any event the ref can remove med or tell people they can only do it in one location. This gives them more freedom (a bit like the example you give with Pomodion): if they want to run an event using the current rules they just say the shrine is in the house and everything within a mile as this is a really magical area.

I think I'm having trouble as I don't believe in a scale that goes from attrition to epic. I prefer to think of it as a scale from "Did you see me? I was epic this event" to "we were epic as a group". That's where I want to strike a balance between a group needing to work together to win and individuals having their moments of glory.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Littleben » Mon May 25, 2015 7:36 pm

It seems to me that it boils down to whether the writers want to make it "attrition" or "epic" (as we are using these terms). Could it not be possibly for it to be written into the plot that for example one day is epic and the players get some resistance to monsters for big swings and then the next day "oh no the shrine was damaged" and then it becomes attrition.
I would like a system like this: the plot is written, possibly even on the fly, where the players do not know whether they are going to be fighting attrition or epic battles until they are fighting them, and it allows for both environments to occur so everyone gets to play their preferred style for a little bit.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Mon May 25, 2015 8:23 pm

Littleben wrote:It seems to me that it boils down to whether the writers want to make it "attrition" or "epic" (as we are using these terms). Could it not be possibly for it to be written into the plot that for example one day is epic and the players get some resistance to monsters for big swings and then the next day "oh no the shrine was damaged" and then it becomes attrition.
I would like a system like this: the plot is written, possibly even on the fly, where the players do not know whether they are going to be fighting attrition or epic battles until they are fighting them, and it allows for both environments to occur so everyone gets to play their preferred style for a little bit.


I think that's what we do and is what I like. I like making some changes but wouldn't want any changes that only allow the system to be one thing or the other.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Littleben » Tue May 26, 2015 12:08 am

Yeah that's fair. I'd like to highlight the idea of writing in the 2 styles into adventures at some points, maybe changing the style multiple times.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Peter Levy » Tue May 26, 2015 1:08 pm

like, say, two people writing saga in tandem...
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Stevie » Tue May 26, 2015 1:17 pm

I honestly don't feel that Attrition vs Epic is as diametrically opposed as people seem to think (or perhaps, as I seem to have a lone view here - everyone else is right and I'm wrong).

I'll clarify what I understand both of those terms meaning, which might give a little insight to my reasoning.

Attrition:
noun
1.
a reduction or decrease in numbers, size, or strength:


In the context of HoP, the "attrition-based style" seems to happen most when we do all-nighters - we've gone through most of the day blowing a little essence here, regenerating a little there. We're then essentially fighting wave after wave with very little power, the simple choices become difficult ones. Situations we could have dealt with before with ease now have to be handled differently, more intelligently - without waste. It's a high pressure, high stakes environment where small mistakes can be costly.

This I love. I love the manic nature of it, I love the desperation, I love the people who have been on their feet for 5/6/7 hours and then sink into the ground for a quick 2 minute rest only to dig deep, find their resolve and stand back up when the next wave comes in.

Epic
adjective
3.
heroic; majestic; impressively great:


In the context of Larp, these are the big fights. The long slogs with one very powerful big bad, or a group of powerful big bads. These aren't a bunch of 4 hit zombies coming at you, this is the guy who is going to fk your shit up. They all have their own names, we talk about the fights at length at downtimes afterward. Judd, Mouth, Mikael, Erathil, Quarin.

We usually have a game-plan for these fights (I didn't say it was a good plan, just that we usually have one) - these are fights that really test us, we usually have an indication that stuff is about to go down. We blow through our essence like a cheap whore. We go all out on these fights because these are the tests that matter. To win, or have some semblance of winning we have to fight smart. It's a high-pressure high stakes environment where small mistakes can be costly (heard this before?)

This I also love. I love the scale of it, I love that same desperation - people diving left and right to shield and heal allies because they know one more good hit from that Axe and the friend you've bonded with and fought together with is toast.



We can still have both of those things, in fact, we currently have both of those things. I don't think the proposed changes would make much difference to those same scenarios, we are still going to be struggling for essence on all nighters, we will still lose friends. We will still hopelessly overestimate ourselves before the big bads, we will still lose people. We will still be exhausted and stretched to our limits, we will still be so far removed from everything else going on in the world because right then, in those moments - all that matters is getting up on your feet, picking up your sword and giving it all you've got.

This is what matters most to me, the immersion, the complete escapism. That's not something that is entirely controlled by the system and the stats we have, it certainly aids the immersion - by creating those difficult scenarios. Changing things in the very measured way that's been proposed won't usher in doomsday. We'll try it, tweak it, see how it goes and go from there. We all have differing hypotheses on how these changes will affect our enjoyment of the system, but ultimately we won't know in practice.

Personally, I think it would be nice to have a little less essence to throw around at toll guards and practical jokes (we've all done it). I think it would be nice to have a little less essence to whack out 20 comms in as many minutes. Maybe that's something that can be catered for by the pacing of adventures, but generally if we see the party doing pretty well for themselves we just chuck 3 more waves of the last thing at them - which is a solution that works, but that doesn't feel great for either the writers of the players.

Meh, I don't know. I never thought I'd like Ice Tea until I tried it, but I do. These changes might be the same. At the end of the day, if they're not, then we'll change them again - the system has evolved and grown time and time again. The rules 8 years ago are so vastly different from where we are now, we've got a great club, some great players and great dedicated refs/system teams who are very passionate about what they do - no one is going to actively destroy it or make it less fun.

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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Tue May 26, 2015 3:41 pm

Stevie wrote:I honestly don't feel that Attrition vs Epic is as diametrically opposed as people seem to think (or perhaps, as I seem to have a lone view here - everyone else is right and I'm wrong).


Ben wrote:I think I'm having trouble as I don't believe in a scale that goes from attrition to epic. I prefer to think of it as a scale from "Did you see me? I was epic this event" to "we were epic as a group".
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Ben » Tue May 26, 2015 3:44 pm

I agree with Stevie's points, especially with the idea of essence being thought of as a little more 'special'. As Stevie says, we've all wasted it on occasion: I'd like the reaction to that to be like pouring a pint of water on the floor in front of Safina.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Tue May 26, 2015 3:55 pm

I can't count the amount of essence I've wasted on just doing random things that don't even influence encounters at all lol
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Erynion » Tue May 26, 2015 5:45 pm

I agree with pretty much all of what Stevie said but I do think the essence pools sound like a fun idea that could mean a lot more sneaky sneaky stuff.
At saga last year I loved the actully having so sneak round without any of our abilities. I think this is a great idea that could be written into the adventures without any real rule changes being made.

Could even do tester where a big bad thinkg has limited / changed the way essence is restored, so its tested but not made perminant and if one particular way works then great.

To be honest hop could change all the rules for the worse but we would all keep playing because the interaction between all the characters is so strong. So no harm in trying it out.

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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Sonny » Tue May 26, 2015 6:10 pm

ok fatty is wading in with a few ideas now, scary as that might seem
had a few thoughts on the points raised and convos i've had with other people
warning lots of waffle and un-thought out, bad grammar and spelling ahead, but bare with me

firstly i agree that feeling awesome after a larp event is ... well awesome, doing something heroic or memorable, only just getting out by the skin of your teeth or pulling together for a team effort. this though comes from a lot of things, the system, the adventure, the monsters and sometimes more than anything other players.
my big point is it can be really hard to shine sometimes when overshadowed by either stronger roleplayers or stronger heroes but there are work arounds for this and i believe as a ref when i see someone do something unexpected and epic.. well sticks with me a long time, still remembering last event seeing the newer players with MUCH lower skill charging right into the enemy demon lines like they had balls of steel, so awesome to see :D
so how do we work around this?
well when it comes to combat, someone with more skill or generic fighting flare will always be hard to compare with, but this can be counted by good monstering in my view, which i think pargon has a good amount of. What i mean is ... that as a monster im a cheating sod and normally states are just a very rough guide line, i judge when to take that final blow and hit the deck and sure big numbers hitting me rapidly get taken into account but nothing compares to someone being really heroic in combat, fighting movie style, really acting it out and just looking epic. Stats are great but wont ever live up to just being cool in my books for killing monsters
now magic is slightly more difficult as those with bigger spells and larger essence reserves can always look more dangerous or holy with their powers and healing, but again awesome verbals, great props and dedication count for SOOOOO much and make such an big impact to players around you and how you are seen, ritual rules almost.
healing though, another issue which i waffled at Ben about and heres an idea
***
Healing in combat with magic is difficult, and costly, magic can be used to get people back up and fighting but costs a fair bit more, maybe rebalancing how much essence is needed, I dont believe stabilising someone should be harder but actually pumping them with hit points, would make people fight more cautiously and give healers more of a choice to pump resource in or just make sure they dont bleed out (as thats a crap way to die )
but out of combat? why dont we give those with maybe less essence or those who dont want to be near the front line something more to encourage awesome roleplay? Im thinking something similar to the way absent blades heal, you take X amout of time with roleplay and you can start healing people back with little or no cost, say 3-5 minuets of mixing and giving medicine or surgery, bandages and what not for healing?
A saga or 2 back i was a backup healing as an absent blade but i felt everybit as important as those who could pump out healing on the spot, it encourages good interaction and roleplay as i tended to the injured, so i think we should possibly think about a way to get the best of both ways? make things feel a lil more dangerous by possibly considering how healing in combat works and costs but level it off with a nice roleplay encouraging way to get people back on their feet after??

///////

now my next though on the essence and essence zones
firstly I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the idea of some places having weak crusts or shrines where essence flows more freely, but i dont think we should nerf essence into the ground, our system is high fantasy and heroism and i would be so sad if that was to change, so many systems are just slug matches with melee weapons, but i love how we have so many abilities and spells to fling around and mix things up. I believe maybe a hard cap on essence reg just like the hard cap we have on damage calls might be a good idea, maybe slightly slower regen.
also yes serks wouldnt be hurt too much by making their regen slower, and if roleplay is needed to get it back, well that just encourages us to be even more cool right? :D i think sitting in actual medication can be rather dull as someone mentioned before when there are characters and plot to be interacting with, so maybe we could compile a suggest list of things to do while medding and then people can make up stuff that suits their hero. s
so places of power with essence beads, so so cool, slightly reduced med with a hard cap sure, serki chi slightly wiggled to make slower and need something to help it along very cool and properly needed
think we need to give drain essence to a spell list though, maybe death or shadow? and maybe speed it up, as could be a nice way to encourage a few types and classes to get stuck in to get their hands on essence other members of the party might get first dibs on.
Ooooooooooooooooooor if general ideas is to hammer essence gain into the ground, lets go more gamey? buy a butt ton of those likl blue glass gems/beads and have certain monsters actually drop essence beads, casters and elementals that they hang onto for players to loot... or drain
also share power.... you know unconcious counts as willing right? could make things interesting if essence got low

////////////

i think everyones main objective here is to make people have a great time in pargon, encourage great roleplay and great fights with proper looking combat and have everyone feeling like are part of something special, having earned a true victory not just a cake walk.
dont honestly believed this can be achieved by rules alone, id hesitate to say it would make it 50% of the way, we need to encourage the style and roleplay from our player and monster base
people will soon learn it works better, feels better and just is better, just need to find a good balance of rules that helps this along, letting them be the hero they want to be and do the things they want to while still letting us as crew and refs keep it challenging without exploding too many heads,

///////

mostly waffle, hope at least some made sense
in general need a ref meeting over Chinese and drink to discuss as i missed the last one :P
but hope something i said might ring true somewhere

as always we will test before making anything solid, so no one needs to panic :D
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Luke » Tue May 26, 2015 10:42 pm

I feel like there is some confusion. Current rules are:

Med doesn't exist
Essence shrines are places where you can meditate, as the old version (1 per threshold)
Essence shrines may have a limited supply.


So essentially, besides from some froop, the ONLY way to get essence back is to meditate at the shrine, which is limited. So it is possible to run out of essence on this event (for example).



Can I suggest we have a bit of a roundtable discussion maybe before/after the event this weekend to discuss changes. I feel that forums are sometimes the worst places to make decisions and give points of view.
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Re: Meditation Changes (split)

Postby Hatsuo1980 » Wed May 27, 2015 9:26 am

Luke wrote:I feel like there is some confusion. Current rules are:

Med doesn't exist
Essence shrines are places where you can meditate, as the old version (1 per threshold)
Essence shrines may have a limited supply.


So essentially, besides from some froop, the ONLY way to get essence back is to meditate at the shrine, which is limited. So it is possible to run out of essence on this event (for example).



Can I suggest we have a bit of a roundtable discussion maybe before/after the event this weekend to discuss changes. I feel that forums are sometimes the worst places to make decisions and give points of view.


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